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Bill Triplett
professional logos
on Oct 16, 2009 at 4:47:06 pm

I would like to do some professional looking logos like the NFL and NBC sports logos. Sharp, metallic, not cartoonish. I've been trying with Illustrator, After Effects and Invigorator. I see a lot of examples on the Zaxwerks site but I haven't found any tutorials on much beyond 3d text logos. Any suggestions?


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david bogie
Re: professional logos
on Oct 16, 2009 at 5:23:14 pm

Practice and feedback and many failures.

Those examples are explicitly and easily reproducible by an experienced designer who is conversant in specialized tools. Such work requires design expertise, a huge amount of aesthetic taste, years of experience, and tons of interaction with people you trust to tell you what's wrong with your work.

It took me about 5 years to get conversant with After Effects and I still do not understand expressions or scripting even after 15 years. But it's impossible for me to wrap my head around 3D modelers so I gave that up and hire experts to that stuff.

Practice and feedback and many failures.

bogiesan



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Bill Triplett
Re: professional logos
on Oct 16, 2009 at 5:57:16 pm

That gives me no answer at all. No where to begin. Of course I practice. I can create the rough in Illustrator and bring them in to AE and use Invigorator. Just don't seem to get the same kind of look.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.



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Peter Greenstone
Re: professional logos
on Oct 16, 2009 at 6:33:43 pm

You ask for extremely broad information on something that really requires a lot of different developed skills and that can be approached in a lot of different ways. There's designing the logo and then there's taking a logo and creating some kind of animation with it such as the NBC tag; usually not the same thing. But I can tell you that if you want to create animated logos like the ones you have described then you need to be working in 3D. You can design it however you want; pencil and paper works for that, but to actually create something like the following...


To do that you need to be working in 3D. Obviously, a lot can be done in 2D and After Effects kind of faked 3D but things like the the example above and other flying logos with extruded text and shapes moving through space with metallic sheen and reflections and complex shadows are done in 3D.

I don't know of any tutorials that will teach you all of what goes into all of that. What you ask for would cover so many different things from traditional graphic design concepts, to techniques with various tools in 2D and 3D, covering modeling, lighting, rendering, compositing. There is information out there to help you will all of these different areas but you will have to narrow your query down significantly when asking for help or advice, otherwise you're just asking how to get to Carnegie Hall.

http://www.petergreenstone.com


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Peter Greenstone
Re: professional logos
on Oct 16, 2009 at 6:46:59 pm

Actually, I'm not very familiar with Invigorator (just saw your mention of it) so I don't know of its limitations or if it can recreate the types of 3D effects used in those examples of not. Maybe it can and you just need to either find tutorials for that tool specifically, or just practice with it some more.

Explaining a bit more about what part is giving you trouble with creating the look you want would help people come up with more helpful suggestions. Maybe post a video or still of an example you are trying to replicate along with a sample of what you have created.

http://www.petergreenstone.com


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Mark Walczak
Re: professional logos
on Oct 16, 2009 at 7:42:48 pm

It might be worth looking into Andrew Kramer's tutorial here:

http://www.videocopilot.net/tutorials/3d_titles_in_cinema_4d/

Cinema4D is a great app for handling Illustrator artwork. Furthermore, it integrates with AE almost seamlessly.

Check out http://www.cineversity.com for some free tuts to get you started.

Hope this helps!

What makes you explode?
http://www.explosivegraffix.com


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Rick Dane
Re: professional logos
on Oct 16, 2009 at 9:37:15 pm

I'm working on doing some of these types of logos... to do this you have to use a 3D software, 3ds max, maya, cinema 4d, etc, etc... these are done in 3D and can only be faked in other applications like photoshop and after effects if you aren't starting with renders from a 3D app... of course photoshop and after effects often play into the post production of these but to start it off you need to do it in 3D

For modeling of 3D shapes, NURBS is the way to go... look into Rhino or Moi for this, then you need to export to a 3D rendering app and animate it, texture it, etc... if you haven't used 3D before you will be in for some time learning how to use these applications but it could pay off in the end, http://forums.cgsociety.org/ is a good general forum for computer graphics with a lot of people focusing on 3D there.


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Bill Triplett
Re: professional logos
on Oct 16, 2009 at 9:48:46 pm

Thank you. Any suggestions as to which might be best? Maybe a shorter learning curve to start with?



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Rick Dane
Re: professional logos
on Oct 16, 2009 at 10:13:05 pm

As far as shorter learning curve, I don't know that one program is better than the other since with 3D its about learning the concepts and then you can usually use any of the programs, I have heard that cinema 4D may be easier to learn than the others but I don't know as I use 3ds max myself..

Something you may be interested in is this plugin: http://maltaannon.com/articles/after-effects/youveelizer/ What this allows you to do is to not have to worry as much about texturing and rendering in 3D and instead apply a texture that you made in a 2d app (like photoshop) directly onto the 3D model within after effects.... look here for info about how to render out the 3D models this way: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/aftereffects/articles/3d_integration_pt1.html

Just something that may get you started faster since there's a lot that goes into making 3D renders look good and actually I have noticed a lot of TV logos (like just now for the baseball game I am watching) use 3D models that I think use this method since the textures on them look like they were made in 2D (photoshop)


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Bill Triplett
Re: professional logos
on Oct 16, 2009 at 10:16:03 pm

I'll begin checking it all out now.

Thank you.



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Bill Triplett
Re: professional logos
on Oct 16, 2009 at 10:48:07 pm

I'll be trying the 3ds Max trial. Is there a tutorial relating to this that you would recommend?



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Rick Dane
Re: professional logos
on Oct 16, 2009 at 10:59:22 pm

Yeah the trial is great since its the full version with no limitations but does expire after 30 days, as far as getting started, well the help files in the document are pretty good as they sort of explain things in a way that makes sense to people who are new to 3D or particular concepts... once you get comfortable with some of the terminology for things you are trying to do its best to search google for specific tutorials on that topics, the good thing about 3ds max is its very widely used so there are probably more tutorials for it than any other 3d application

Also, check out moi: http://moi3d.com/ I recommend starting out modeling in this right away as 3ds max is more for polygonal modeling and moi is optimized for NURBS which are usually more efficient for most things at least to start the model out with, you can then export to 3ds max by saving it as an .obj or .iges (you can probably find plenty of tutorials on exporting / importing to 3ds max), I think you may find moi to be more fun to model with (check out their help file to learn the basics)


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scott novasic
Re: professional logos
on Oct 18, 2009 at 6:29:19 am

as one of the leaders here on the AE forum AND the Zazwerks Forum AND the motion graphics forum, I HAVE to give my opinion here. Zaxwerks is an EXCELLENT tool for taking illustrator artwork into a hi - end 3d app. That is the "hardest" part of the whole process. Once you have the model properly set and divided between the face bevels and edges or more, than its simply a matter of using the shading setup in the app you choose. I use Maya, C4d AND (still) Electric Image. Check out my reel, one of the more well recieved reels here on creative cow

http://reels.creativecow.net/film/supernova-los-angeles-scott-novasic-mogra...

I have used invigerator for almost ALL of my modeling and Electric Image for my rendering and im here in Hollywood. EI is easily the best and easiest to use mograph app for the money out there today. C4d is VERY strong in many areas, but I find its rendering to be a bit difficult. c4d is what you need to work for someone these days, but, if your just looking for kick ass imagery easy and affordable. EI tech group and EIAS with 18 yrs in feature film work to its credit, is the way id go. (I still use them all for certain things)

SuperNova
Animation & Visual Effects
Scott Novasic
Los Angeles Ca
web:http://web.mac.com/finaleffects


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Bill Triplett
Re: professional logos
on Oct 18, 2009 at 8:58:37 pm

Thank you so much Scott. I was mistakenly thinking I could go directly into Invigorator from Illustrator and get that pro look. Looks like I'll need to learn another application. 3D software. I'm looking at 3DS Max now but am open.



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david bogie
Re: professional logos
on Oct 18, 2009 at 9:35:30 pm

[Bill Triplett] "I was mistakenly thinking I could go directly into Invigorator from Illustrator and get that pro look. Looks like I'll need to learn another application. 3D software. I'm looking at 3DS Max now but am open. "

Blender.
Open source, free, huge user base and ultra-hip community, books, videos.
F-r-e-e.

3D requires nine times as log to learn, nine times as long to render, and about 27 times as long to get good at.

bogiesan



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