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remove pulldown with phase changes throughout

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dan freshman
remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 5, 2009 at 7:08:01 pm

Hello,

my understanding is that if pulldown has been added from film, then when it is edited after telecine, the pulldown phase will be changed throughout the clip. If I am trying to remove pulldown, then is the only way to do this by chopping up the clip and removing different pulldown phase from each individual shot of the whole clip?

I am doing this because we are trying to get spot with pulldown added to look good on progressive monitors and not show any interlacing resulting from pulldown.

thanks for the help,
dan


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Dave LaRonde
Re: remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 5, 2009 at 7:40:10 pm

You are correct. But take heart: you only have to remove the pulldown five times, because there are only five different variations on a normal 3:2 pulldown. The trick then becomes selecting which one of the five to use for each shot... and God help you if there are any dissolves, wipes, or picture-in-picture already edited into place.

You're learning a hard lesson: if you want a film frame rate, you should always, Always, ALWAYS remove the pulldown before editing begins, and edit in a 23.976 (aka 23.98) timeline!

Have the buffoon who decided not to remove the pulldown always be present while you toil away on this, compensating for his or her lack of ambition or knowledge. You shouldn't be the only person to have all the fun.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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dan freshman
Re: remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 5, 2009 at 8:39:10 pm

thanks for the reply Dave,

If I am encountering dissolves and fades, what's the best point to make a cut?


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Dave LaRonde
Re: remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 5, 2009 at 9:13:27 pm

[dan freshman] "If I am encountering dissolves and fades, what's the best point to make a cut?"

A fade isn't a problem. But a dissolve? Prayer is your final resort. Pray that the pulldown cadence was the same on the two dissolved shots. But the chances are 5-1 against you.

In my experience, this revelation that you have dissolves in this file can mean only one thing: YOU ARE GOOD AND TRULY HOSED. I can't stress it enough: there is absolutely nothing you can do.


Oh, wait -- At this point, put a loaded gun to the editor's head and tell him or her to do the job the right way, because there is no way you can compensate for his or her stupidity or laziness.

I really don't have any experience in the matter of trying to compensate for lack of pulldown removal on a dissolve because, fortunately, I have never been so incredibly dumb as to capture, edit and export video containing 3:2 pulldown.

You're on your own. Good luck. And give your editor a Dope Slap.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Scott Skaja
Re: remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 6, 2009 at 1:07:59 am

I like the cut of your gib, LaRonde.

Scott Skaja
edit/design/animation
http://www.scottskaja.com


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Dave LaRonde
Re: remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 6, 2009 at 5:53:21 pm

There's an old joke:

In the late 1800's a small-town merchant wanted to take his wagon to the next town. The problem: his mule wouldn't budge. The guy tried a carrot on a stick, a riding crop, pushing, yelling... nothing. The mule kept his butt firmly planted on the road.

Then a farmer happened along, looking interestedly at this circus in the middle of the road. The merchant explained his predicament and the farmer got out of his wagon, a 2x4 in hand. He whacked the mule over the head with the 2x4 and whispered in the mule's ear. Suddenly, the mule got up on his feet, ready to go.

"That's amazing!" the merchant said. "What did you say to the mule?"

"I just told him he needed to pull the wagon," said the farmer.

"That's IT? Well, why did you club him with a 2x4?" asked the merchant.

"Oh, that," drawled the farmer. "That was just to get his attention."


Sometimes you just need to get people's attention, and I find myself frequently playing the role of a 2x4 in this forum.

I know original poster confuses the term, "telecine" with "exporting a file"; he used it in a previous thread, and it turned out he was trying to remove pulldown from 24p video that was captured and edited at 29.97. So I don't think there was any film involved in his project, and if there was, it was still captured and edited at 29.97. He's either being pressured to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, or he did the capturing and editing himself --which is even worse -- and so he's screwed himself and he's now grasping at straws.

Well, the straws are waterlogged, and all I did was whack him over the head with a 2x4. Time will tell if I got his attention.




Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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dan freshman
Re: remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 6, 2009 at 7:22:28 pm

You have my attention. Although i'm still trying to figure out exactly what being hosed means....

I am indeed in a crappy predicament. I have a library of spots that my marketing department wants to look good on tvs and on progressive monitors. The whole library is at 29.97, with most of those existing on digibeta 10 bit uncompressed also at 29.97. The library is a few thousand spots from a huge variety of formats, many of those originally film. Anything with pulldown added, from my understanding, looks bad on progressive monitors, and that is the riddle in which the hosing is occuring.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 6, 2009 at 7:37:28 pm

Have you looked at a representative sampling of these spots on a video monitor yourself? Do they indeed look bad, or is this just hearsay?

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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dan freshman
Re: remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 6, 2009 at 7:47:38 pm

They look perfect on video monitors, anything that plays back interlaced footage. But on computer screens, anything w/ pulldown added looks bad. You see the split frames.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 6, 2009 at 7:54:03 pm

Okay, well, you said "progressive monitors". I read that to mean "High-Definition progressive-scan video monitors"

So here's the big question: what's the REASON for doing this? How does your marketing department plan to use this 29.97 video, shot either on film or with a 24P video camera?

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Steve Roberts
Re: remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 6, 2009 at 7:43:40 pm

Some definitions of "hosed" are here.




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dan freshman
Re: remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 6, 2009 at 9:25:31 pm

These spots are for director's reels. The marketing people think that when we send DVDs to prospective clients, that they may watch them through DVDs to television sets, or moreover on Laptops. So this process is attempting to optimize playback through both. It may be a lost cause but this was a final shot i guess.

thanks again,
dan


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Dave LaRonde
Re: remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 6, 2009 at 9:47:10 pm

[dan freshman] "These spots are for director's reels... DVDs to prospective clients..."

Ah. Well, unless your company has very deep pockets so you can spend a couple of weeks on this project, I'd say it isn't worth the effort.

However, the following is most certainly worth the effort -- make a test DVD! Take a few representative files involving film-tape transfers, 24p video, those questionable dissolves, etc... and make a few DVDs. Play 'em on TV's at home... give 'em to the marketing people.... see what you and they think. Tell the marketing folks you're investigating new DVD authoring software or something, and you want their opinion on how it looks. In a word, lie.

Now, that's worth a little effort! And it may save you from having to jump into the deep end of the pool, if you know what I mean....

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Dave LaRonde
I forgot to add this...
on Oct 7, 2009 at 3:11:40 pm

When you're making these DVDs, don't go changing the frame rates of the files... leave 'em at 29.97.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Steve Roberts
Re: remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 7, 2009 at 4:58:46 pm

The upshot of it all seems to be:
1. removing pulldown over cuts is possible, but painstaking work, cut-by-cut.
2. removing pulldown over a dissolve with matching pulldown phases is possible (odds are 4:1 against?), but the same as above.
3. removing pulldown over a dissolve with mismatched pulldown phases is impossible.

The client might have thought it was "push the button and render" situation, but it isn't.



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Scott Skaja
Re: remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 7, 2009 at 5:10:17 pm

I would say that the only way to remove mismatched pulldown through a dissolve is to deinterlace the footage, but that would decrease the overall image quality.

If you take one of the spots and test out making it progressive, keep track of your time. This will give you info to let your client know how much time/money it will take to complete the entire library of spots. This may assist them in calculating the validity of this project.

Scott Skaja
edit/design/animation
http://www.scottskaja.com


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Peter Litwinowicz
Re: remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 6, 2009 at 7:47:10 pm

As Mr. LaRonde said, if you have any edits other than cuts, then you are mostly hosed.

However, you can remove pulldown with different phases in the same clip, if the phase changes are just because of cuts, without having to cut into a bunch of segments first. Our FieldsKit product has a pulldown removal plugin that will allow you to animate the phase setting. You'll have to do animate the phase changes manually, but you can go to each cut and change the phase. In this way you can removal pulldown that changes phase across cuts (but not dissolves, wipes,etc, that could have two different phases represented in the same frame).

FieldsKit only removes 3:2 pulldown and 3:2 Advanced pulldown (we don't other phases currently). more info here: http://www.revisionfx.com/products/fieldskit

Pete Litwinowicz
RE:Vision Effects, Inc.



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Edmond Leung
Re: remove pulldown with phase changes throughout
on Oct 13, 2009 at 1:24:41 am

I just did a video to web commercial spot with pull down phrases all over the place. Instead of manually chopping it up all the edits. I imported the spot 5 times and each one use a different phrase and stack all of them into one composition. I just switch on and off splited layers to use the footage that was correctly removed the 3:2.

I don't have the plugin that can keyframe the phrases to remove 3:2 pull down.


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