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kurt murphy
progressively longer renders
on Sep 1, 2009 at 1:28:22 pm

I'm doing 43 identical renders (just minor changes on each one) for a local CW network affiliate. They're HD scaled down to SD. They SHOULD take around 15-20 minutes apiece. Oddly, the first took 40 minutes, the 2nd took 1 hour, 3rd 1.5 hours, 3rd 2.2 hours, 4th 3 hours, 5th 3.8 hours and 6th over 4 hours. The keep taking progressively longer (I stopped it after the 6th render). Does anyone have any insight as to why this would be happening?

Running CS3 on a dual G5.

thank you,

kurt murphy


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Dave LaRonde
Re: progressively longer renders
on Sep 1, 2009 at 4:39:56 pm

[kurt murphy] "...They're HD scaled down to SD. They SHOULD take around 15-20 minutes apiece..."

The common offenders in abnormally long renders are 1) using video footage that is some form of mpeg, some form of HDV or other forms of interframe compression and 2) using Open GL when rendering. Do either apply?

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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kurt murphy
Re: progressively longer renders
on Sep 1, 2009 at 7:03:23 pm

<< Do either apply?>>

Thanks for responding Dave... Yes, I'm using HD movies; and I can see where it would take longer. I just don't know why each SUBSEQUENT render takes exponentially longer than the previous one (even though they're all basically identical).

kurt



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Dave LaRonde
Re: progressively longer renders
on Sep 1, 2009 at 7:18:37 pm

If you're the Kurt Murphy who once worked and may still work in Buffalo, you know your stuff. You have to chalk it up to HDV weirdness in AE. Excuse the stock answer, but it applies:

Dave's Stock Answer #1:

If the footage you imported into AE is any kind of the following -- footage in an HDV acquisition codec, MPEG1, MPEG2, mp4, m2t, H.261 or H.264 -- you need to convert it to a different codec.

These kinds of footage use temporal, or interframe compression. They have keyframes at regular intervals, containing complete frame information. However, the frames in between do NOT have complete information. Interframe codecs toss out duplicated information.

In order to maintain peak rendering efficiency, AE needs complete information for each and every frame. But because these kinds of footage contain only partial information, AE freaks out, resulting in a wide variety of problems.... perhaps including progressively longer renders.


Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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kurt murphy
Re: progressively longer renders
on Sep 1, 2009 at 9:00:38 pm

Dave,

Thanks again... And it is the same Kurt from the same Buffalo (thanks for the vote of confidence!). I didn't know that about the codecs (so much for knowing my stuff). When I get info on them, they say Apple Animation (I'm assuming the Animation+ codec because they contain an alpha). When i look at the Render Details it says 'Preparing' for stretches at a time, which leaves me to believe that you are correct (I've never seen that before). The production house that created these easily could have used AE's text instead of these massive 3D movies - you barely notice that they're 3D anyway....

Again, thanks Dave.

kurt (from Buffalo) murphy



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Dave LaRonde
Re: progressively longer renders
on Sep 1, 2009 at 9:25:54 pm

[kurt murphy] "...When I get info on them, they say Apple Animation (I'm assuming the Animation+ codec because they contain an alpha)...."

Yup. Sounds like the Animation codec to me too, and those progressively-longer renders are just downright weird. The only remaining thing that occurs to me is this: if you're doing 43 cuts for a CW station, it's sounds like you're tagging out promos with graphics from an animation place. The clips from the animation place appear to be fine, so I'd double-check the CW-provided stuff.

HD spots are frequently compressed using multipass H.264. They look great, but they give AE fits: H.264 is a form of temporal (aka interframe) compression.

If that's the case, open 'em in QT Pro and export using the Animation codec. You can simply replace the original CW footage in the AE Project Window with the newly-exported stuff. Your renders will then go as fast as you-know-what through a goose.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Garrett Unglaub
Re: progressively longer renders
on Sep 2, 2009 at 8:17:34 pm

Sorry to bump in on the conversation, but I have something I'd like to ask about the choice of codecs.

If I am creating my ae render in pieces, rendering out each piece so that it is easier to preview, which codec would you reccomend for HD?

Animation does not seem to give any better file size than uncompressed, and it introduces noise.

I was a huge fan of huffyuv, but it is now old and does not decompress fast, which means long render times.

DV was an easy format to export to with SD because of the quick decompress and hardware assist as well as low generational decay (canopus)


I've heard good things about cineform, is this what I'm looking for?

I just cannot seem to find a good full frame lossless codec which decompresses faster than uncompressed for 720p hd.

Thank you
Garrett Unglaub


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Dave LaRonde
Re: progressively longer renders
on Sep 2, 2009 at 9:46:06 pm

[Garrett Unglaub] "If I am creating my ae render in pieces, rendering out each piece so that it is easier to preview, which codec would you reccomend for HD? "

Let me answer the question with a question: why are you rendering in pieces? Why not just shorten the work area, which lets you RAM Preview pieces of the comp without rendering from the Render Queue or Exporting? Here's how:
http://help.adobe.com/en_US/AfterEffects/9.0/WS3878526689cb91655866c1103906...

--------------------------------------------------------------

[Garrett Unglaub] "Animation does not seem to give any better file size than uncompressed, and it introduces noise.... DV was an easy format to export to with SD because of the quick decompress and hardware assist as well as low generational decay "

Whoa! If you're getting picky about the Animation codec -- a LOSSLESS codec at best quality, I might add -- how is it that you were a fan of DV, which compresses the living daylights out of video? I don't get it.

--------------------------------------------------------------

[Garrett Unglaub] "I've heard good things about cineform, is this what I'm looking for? "

I guess it all depends on your computer platform and what you're expected to deliver.

If you're on a Mac like me, and you have the latest version of Final Cut Pro, you can take advantage of the newest ProRes codecs, which I hear are very good indeed. I still think the Animation codec -- which can be read by any Quicktime-equipped computer on the planet -- is a good choice. But I think I'm going to try out a suggestion from Todd Kopriva at Adobe. He likes to make Quicktime movies using PNG compression at best quality.
He writes, "The PNG codec is lossless at the highest quality settings---just like Animation---but the file sizes are about half for photorealistic subject matter. (Animation still wins for images with large expanses of flat color, since that's what the Animation codec's RLE scheme is optimized for.)"

If you want to try out Cineform, you should do it. If you like uncompressed, then you should by all means use uncompressed. Some other application will have to compress your files to play them, but by that point, it's probably out of your hands.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Garrett Unglaub
Re: progressively longer renders
on Sep 3, 2009 at 12:50:05 am

well it is a big nested composition. I would like to render green screen elements so they are easier to manipulate.

Not preview part of the project.

So a quick decoding lossless ((I meant dv is lossy but it's only as good as the source...) codec which is better than uncompressed processor wise.

I have an older computer.

The studio has a dual quad core xeon

I have a dual xeon from 2003 at home :(


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Dave LaRonde
Re: progressively longer renders
on Sep 3, 2009 at 3:09:21 pm

If you want to reassure yourself that the motion and timing in your rendered comps are good, use the Add Output Module command when in the Render Queue. You'll find out how to do it in the online AE Help.

When using this command, AE will render a comp frame once, then encode it to multiple codecs... as many as you chose to add. So you can make a lossless copy for the studio, plus a quick and dirty compressed version in a codec that you know will play in real time on your computer.


Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Garrett Unglaub
Re: progressively longer renders
on Sep 3, 2009 at 6:20:53 pm

alright thank you that is helpful.



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