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Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)

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noah campeauDelivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 13, 2015 at 7:02:04 pm

Hi guys

So I need to deliver 10 seconds of film in both 25fps and 29.97. It will be a mixture of abstract macro shots without sound.

To get best results on both, what frame rate do you suggest to film in?

I have done some tests, where I have filmed a slow spinning object at 25 and 29.97, imported into AE and conformed both clips to the opposing frame rates. Both play back absolutely fine. Has After Effects just got really good and conforming footage? Should it really mater whether I shoot high or low?

Thanks
Noah


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Ivan MylesRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 13, 2015 at 8:14:23 pm

Try frame blending with pixel motion on the 25/29fps test shots to see if there is a difference. Both should look good. Alternatively, is 50fps an option? What about shooting twice to get a set of shots at each speed?


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noah campeauRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 13, 2015 at 8:40:35 pm

Thanks Ivan, Yes both seem to look fine.

Shooting at 50fps is an option, then conforming down. Cant really shoot twice as both deliveries have to be exactly the same. I will need to edit in one timecode, then when the edit is signed off I will have to make another version in the different frame rate. This is the workflow I have in mind.


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Ivan MylesRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 14, 2015 at 12:17:21 am

I like frame blending with pixel motion because missing frames are interpolated from the existing frames. This technique yields the smoothest motion but requires additional processing.

With a 50fps source file frames can be dropped without extra processing:

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRST @ 50 fps
A-C-E-G-I-K-M-O-Q-S- @ 25 fps
A-C-EF-H-JK-M-OP-R-T @ 30 fps

But with low motion you might be fine with a 25, 29, or 30 fps file. Use the option that works best with your footage and processing requirements.


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Walter SoykaRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 14, 2015 at 2:52:31 am

[noah campeau] "I have done some tests, where I have filmed a slow spinning object at 25 and 29.97, imported into AE and conformed both clips to the opposing frame rates."

What specifically do you mean by "conformed both clips to the opposing frame rates?" What exact steps are you taking in Ae?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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noah campeauRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 14, 2015 at 1:30:40 pm

To elaborate on this, I have shot the same scenario at 25 and 29.97. I then imported both, and conformed the 25 to 29.97 and the 29.97 to 25. In the past I have conformed 25 up to 29.97 and have had choppy playback issues. But in this particular case, both options seem to play fine.


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Walter SoykaRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 14, 2015 at 1:54:54 pm

[noah campeau] "I have shot the same scenario at 25 and 29.97. I then imported both, and conformed the 25 to 29.97 and the 29.97 to 25. In the past I have conformed 25 up to 29.97 and have had choppy playback issues. But in this particular case, both options seem to play fine."

Just to make sure we're on the same page, you're saying you've:

1) Shot footage at 25 fps
2) Imported the footage into Ae
3) Changed its framerate in Interpret Footage from 25 to 29.97

If so, you are actually speeding up the footage and shortening its duration. Is that ok? Have I misunderstood what you are doing above?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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noah campeauRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 14, 2015 at 11:01:53 pm

Yes that is correct. I tried shooting at both frame rates to see if one conformed better than the other.

This is the workflow I have in mind going forward:

– Shoot at 60fps
– Conform footage down to 29.97
– Edit and grade footage at 29.97
– Render

To make the 25fps deliverable:
– Import and conform 29.97 fps footage to 25fps
– Time stretch footage to match the duration of the original 29.97 piece

Without trying it, I think this seems like my best option.


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Walter SoykaRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 15, 2015 at 10:19:32 am

[noah campeau] "To make the 25fps deliverable:
– Import and conform 29.97 fps footage to 25fps
– Time stretch footage to match the duration of the original 29.97 piece"


This will give the same result as just dropping your 29.97 fps footage into a 25fps comp and enabling one of the frame-blending modes. There is no need to re-interpret the footage at a different rate, then re-time it.

However, this will force Ae to either drop 5 frames per second, or to synthesize nearly all new frames. 30 > 25 is a pretty hard frame rate conversion to do with motion estimation.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Dave LaRondeRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 14, 2015 at 4:51:11 am

Does this finished work need to be delivered at the same duration and at the same speed for both frame rates? If no, keep doing what you're doing. If yes, you need frame rate conversion software like Twixtor.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Tristan SummersRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 15, 2015 at 9:41:58 am

Hello Noah!
You have learned well young Jedi
You could shoot 24 fps use normal 3:2 pull down to get the 29.97 and slow it down for 25.

this is how all films are done.

But say it was for something that needed fast motion, you could double that to 48. Then you are in the Hobbit territory.

if you have the budget, shoot it 60p and get it converted at Stanley. It isn't that expensive.

I did that for multinational delivery for Nokia.

after effects retiming never really works for me but if you use time warp instead it is often better

do it by setting actual frame numbers.

or download Fusion and figure out how to do it there.

Tris


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Tristan SummersRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 15, 2015 at 9:59:51 am

Ivan is basically describing 3:2 pulldown
I have some friends with a Scarlet who may be able to help and maybe cheaper and more competent than some of the other more traditional photography options...
I would make the whole thing at 60fps and send it out of house for conversion.
StanleyProductions are the go to place in Soho and not actually that expensive.
But it must be a process people have cracked.
There used to be a process in compressor that was pretty good.

There should be a twistor / kronos ( Timewarp) preset

Anyone?

It is also possible, when going 24 to 25 to time stretch the audio but keep the pitch the same, but you may need to use compressor
For animations I often render each thing separately, but for indents, clients have never understood the need.

Right now a 1080p24 master is enough and easiest to conform as the interpretation rules are already in place...


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Walter SoykaRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 15, 2015 at 10:10:40 am

[Tristan Summers] "You could shoot 24 fps use normal 3:2 pull down to get the 29.97 and slow it down for 25."

I strongly agree that this is the way to go.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Tristan SummersRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 15, 2015 at 10:41:44 am

Hi
Also, just asking around.
Shooting at 60p, you would need to increase the SHUTTER speed.
I don't fully understand why.
So the result conforming down will still be stuttery.
Think Gladiator
super sharp
no motion blur to smooth things out
So actually shooting 24p will probably produce better results.
But unless you are familiar with American Cinematographer panning speeds, avoid pans like the f***ing plague
Horizontal camera motion will stutter even if it is super slow.
I don't think you will need it for this, but just to be aware of...

adding motion blur with TimeWarp can help though
Speed set to 100% but with motion blur on uses optical flow to produce pretty good motion blur. Not as good as Nuke but hey


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Tristan SummersRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 15, 2015 at 11:49:27 am

Think I am understanding something here.
Higher frame rate obviously means the shutter will have to be open for less time.
Hence there will be a lot LESS MOTION BLUR.
So the image gets sharper.
This can lead to MORE stuttering.
If you then lose frames taking it down to 30/25 it gets more choppy

The extra motion blur shooting at 24 actually helps keep it smooth.


24 divides nicely with pull down to 30 and speeds nicely up to 25
You don't usually notice the extra doubled frames

60 chops nicely in half to 30 but not sure it can be put in to 25 so easily.

But the softening you et with retiming may actually be a good thing and increase motion smoothness

In a time of multiple frame rates, it would be good to get some tutorial references to point towards best practice on this and similar issues.

Noah and I are from a graphics not a shooting background, so we are thinking about timelines not lenses, which may not be helping


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Chris NewmanRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 15, 2015 at 5:55:30 pm

You mean deliver 29.97 interlaced, as this wouldn't work if he needed 29.97 progressive, right?

To deliver 29.97 progressive, I would recommend shooting at 59.94 with 1/60 sec shutter speed, edit at 59.94, output 29.97, get edit approved, inverse 3:2 pulldown to 24, speed up to 25.


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Tristan SummersRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 15, 2015 at 7:33:39 pm

why wouldn't it work to 29.97p? there is no interlaced source material


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Chris NewmanRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 15, 2015 at 8:58:11 pm

I was intending to reply to suggestions that said:

"You could shoot 24 fps use normal 3:2 pull down to get the 29.97 and slow it down for 25."

3:2 pull down creates a 29.97 interlaced output, so each source frame is held for 2 or 3 60 Hz fields, which is pretty smooth. If you try to do this outputting to 29.97 progressive, you duplicate 1 out of every 4 source frames, which looks pretty choppy.


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noah campeauRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 15, 2015 at 10:17:05 pm

Thanks for all the suggestions, seems like I have some options.

After filming some test shots on my 5D Im pretty happy with the results after following the workflow I mentioned above.

It makes sense to shoot in 60p, as the liquid is going to look a tad better when slowed down by 50%. I will conform the footage down to 29.97 to do my edit and grade. Then to make the 25 version I will drop the 29.97 into 25 timeline with frame blending enabled. Playback is smooth, no dodgy frames.

It will be a completely different setup/camera etc for the real shoot, so hopefully I will get similar results.


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Tristan SummersRe: Delivering in multiple frame rates! (Conform with AE)
by on Dec 16, 2015 at 8:43:38 am

So if normally a 60fps would have 120 shutter speed, if slowing it down, maybe shutter should be 60 to get the right feel of motion blur?
Re. Pulldown interlacing. Oh, yeah, oops, hmmm....


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