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Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?

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Larry Wheeler
Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 3:07:56 pm

Been running AE CS6 for a long while now on my Mac Pro with a Quadro 4000 Mac Video Card. Performance was always pretty slow in 1080i, even in basic work. I have a Mid 2012 Mac Pro with 12 core @ 3.06 Processors running on 10.9.4. This one has 64GB RAM, and is SSD based on the OS, with a dedicated SSD just for AE cache files as well.

I upgraded to AE CC 2014, and installed the new K5000 Video card. Speeds have improved, very slightly, if at all. Is there something I am missing here? I use AE for a lot of my graphics, and the stuff I am doing isn't heavy lifting. It's 1080i ProRes- 30 to 40 second comps with pre-rendered backgrounds (that never change) and basic 2d text that doesn't even move. That's it, yet with one line of text on a pre-rendered background, it takes 3.5 to 5 minutes to render in ProRes for a 44 second clip. That is in CS6, and CC 2014. Times were identical on the older configuration with the Quadro 4000.

Changing to "render multiple frames simultaneously" doesn't help in either scenario. This machine is easily trounced in performance by my Retina MacBook Pro on AE CC, and by the HP "Mobile Workstation" PC Laptop top with AE CC. Both of these (admittedly decked out) laptops turn out the same material in far less time.

What am I missing here? Any help would be appreciated!


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Michael Szalapski
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 3:12:25 pm

[Larry Wheeler] " Times were identical on the older configuration with the Quadro 4000...

What am I missing here?"


You are missing the fact that the GPU will not have any effect at all on what you are doing.
See this [link] about the GPU in AE.

It does sound like it's taking too long though. What are your memory and multiprocessing settings? Cache settings? Etc. (Screenshots would help.)

- The Great Szalam
(The 'Great' stands for 'Not So Great, in fact, Extremely Humble')

No trees were harmed in the creation of this message, but several thousand electrons were mildly inconvenienced.


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Larry Wheeler
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 3:21:02 pm
Last Edited By Larry Wheeler on Jul 10, 2014 at 3:24:47 pm



Thanks for the link Michael. I somehow never knew the GPU wasn't part of the equation with AE. My apologies.


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Michael Szalapski
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 3:44:26 pm
Last Edited By Michael Szalapski on Jul 10, 2014 at 3:45:14 pm

Turn on Render Multiple Frames Simultaneously and set CPUs to use for other applications to something other than 0. Try a render in the Render Queue and see if that makes a difference.

Then try these tips and resources [link]. (Especially this one [link] and this one [link]).

- The Great Szalam
(The 'Great' stands for 'Not So Great, in fact, Extremely Humble')

No trees were harmed in the creation of this message, but several thousand electrons were mildly inconvenienced.


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EricBowen
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 3:53:14 pm

Setting CPU's to use on other applications to something other than 0 wont speed AE render queue time up. However set multi processing on and the ram per thread to 2 to 4GB and see how that works. The comp decides how much ram you need per thread but those are the normal settings for standard comps. Also a screen pic of OSX CPU threading meter would help identify what your seeing.

Eric-ADK
Tech Manager
support@adkvideoediting.com


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Michael Szalapski
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 4:04:02 pm

[EricBowen] "Setting CPU's to use on other applications to something other than 0 wont speed AE render queue time up."

But it will help keep things running smoothly. The OS and any programs running in the background need something to run on or it can cause issues.

[Ian Mapleson] "Actually it very much does matter if you're using the RayTrace3D function, which
employs CUDA acceleration."


Ian is right. As the link I shared says, if you ever use ray-traced rendering, a GPU makes a huge difference. (However, the ray-traced 3d rendering feature is considered obsolete now that we have C4D included with AE.)

- The Great Szalam
(The 'Great' stands for 'Not So Great, in fact, Extremely Humble')

No trees were harmed in the creation of this message, but several thousand electrons were mildly inconvenienced.


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Ian Mapleson
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 4:13:49 pm

Michael Szalapski writes:
> ... (However, the ray-traced 3d rendering feature is considered obsolete now that
> we have C4D included with AE.)

I must confess my knowledge of C4D is minimal. Can it be GPU accelerated? I was wondering
how it would compare for rendering something like this (reflections gone whacko):

http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/cuda.101_Frame96.jpg

That takes about 15 mins to render on four GTX 580s (Titan Black = approx. 25 mins)

Ian.

SGI Guru


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Michael Szalapski
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 5:46:26 pm

Wow, that's a lot of reflection-y surfaces!

If I had time, I could try to build something like this in C4D to test it, but it's a bit hard to see what's going on. I can't even make out the shape of some of the geometry. Is there a download of that somewhere I could use as a reference?

- The Great Szalam
(The 'Great' stands for 'Not So Great, in fact, Extremely Humble')

No trees were harmed in the creation of this message, but several thousand electrons were mildly inconvenienced.


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Ian Mapleson
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 7:06:02 pm

Thanks Eric for the Octane link!! Duh me, someone told me about Octane a couple of
weeks ago, but I'd forgotten it was a plugin for C4D, though now I remember why: the
benchmark scene res (HD) is larger than the max pixel size of the plugin demo (1000x600)
so I can't use the demo to test how C4D/CUDA would compare.


Michael Szalapski writes:
> Wow, that's a lot of reflection-y surfaces!

It was designed to be a CUDA killer. :D One frame to use as a performance benchmark,
the whole animation as a stability test (kept seeing comments from people asking for
something that can really hammer a system to check that long duration renders won't
knock their system over).

With two Titans at max detail, the full 4 second animation would take maybe 2 days
to compute. I'll be writing a page for it soon for my site.


> If I had time, I could try to build something like this in C4D to test it, but it's
> a bit hard to see what's going on. I can't even make out the shape of some of the
> geometry. Is there a download of that somewhere I could use as a reference?

Here's the aep:

http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/cuda.101.zip

If you go through the usual RenderQueue setup, it's preset to process just frame 96
at medium res/detail (or should be), ie. 16bpc, 8 levels (RayTrace3D options), HD 25fps.
Max detail is 32bpc, 10 levels, 50fps.

Ian.

PS. I didn't create the aep. Friend of mine did all the hard graft.

SGI Guru


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EricBowen
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 6:19:25 pm

https://render.otoy.com/shop/cinema4d_plugin.php

Eric-ADK
Tech Manager
support@adkvideoediting.com


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EricBowen
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 4:33:38 pm
Last Edited By EricBowen on Jul 10, 2014 at 4:34:49 pm

The editor is not running into issues with AE not completing the render or crashing. The issue is the amount of time compared to dual or quad core laptop. The OS moderates these interrupts and should not have any issues interrupting the cpu's when needed for the OS or another app. By default this set to 0 likely on the laptops as well. Setting a CPU to idle for non use by the application just is slowing it down in this case not speeding it up. If an editor is running into issues with AE crashing then that is a setting to look at. If not then it wont change the results here.

Eric-ADK
Tech Manager
support@adkvideoediting.com


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Walter Soyka
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 5:04:38 pm

[EricBowen] "By default this set to 0 likely on the laptops as well. Setting a CPU to idle for non use by the application just is slowing it down in this case not speeding it up. If an editor is running into issues with AE crashing then that is a setting to look at. If not then it wont change the results here."

That's not my experience at all, but this is highly situationally dependent.

http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2010/03/performance-tip-dont-oversched....

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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EricBowen
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 5:18:22 pm

Remember the OS is handling the threading and scheduling for all applications such as editors like Premiere or FCPX without any cpu setting control. This is something the OS is designed to do regardless of whether an application has an option for that or not. The differences occur in the priority assigned to the applications and the interrupts for each application call. For example an input command from an application can have a much higher priority than a data execute command and so on and so forth. If the editor is continuing to work on other applications and the input latency starts becoming an issue due to the scheduling and time it takes to interrupt cores then leaving a core idle will often alleviate that. However if that application has a high enough priority and the background application has the correct status for executing data this is negotiated efficiently by the OS.

Eric-ADK
Tech Manager
support@adkvideoediting.com


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Darby Edelen
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 13, 2014 at 7:35:14 am

There are several reasons I disagree but primary among them are:

1. The overhead of launching and managing the several render processes (32 if maxed on my machine) generally results in diminishing returns.

2. AE is terrible at memory management. I prefer to limit the number of CPUs so that my computer doesn't attempt to use all 128GB of ram across 32 render processes.

The Render Multiple Frames Simultaneously feature is a quirky workaround for not having a fully multithreaded renderer that sometimes causes more trouble than it's worth.

Often I need 8GB (sometimes 16GB) of RAM dedicated for each background render process so generally the number of CPUs that can be used is limited by that, but even if it weren't I hard cap the number of CPUs that can be used to half of my logical cores (32/2 = 16).

Darby Edelen


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EricBowen
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 14, 2014 at 5:18:49 pm
Last Edited By EricBowen on Jul 14, 2014 at 5:21:11 pm

AE uses threads for more than just the Background Render processes of the multi-frame rendering. Leaving those cores available for AE doesn't mean you need to use all of them for multiframe rendering. That is decided by how much ram the system has overall and how much you set for each thread. What is set for each core/thread is more decided by what is required for that comp than necessarily required to run all cpu cores/threads for the background render. Often running enough ram per core leaves more than enough cpu cores/threads available for the other processes AE uses. The point however is to let AE and the OS have whatever CPU cores available based on what is scheduled and moderated by the OS. The OS is far more efficient moderating that on average than we are since processing conditions constantly change in these applications. Its far easier to go back and adjust for a special case that is performing less than ideal than lose processing efficiency 100% of the time.

Eric-ADK
Tech Manager
support@adkvideoediting.com


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Ian Mapleson
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 3:58:55 pm

Larry Wheeler writes:
> ... I somehow never knew the GPU wasn't part of the equation with AE. My apologies.

Actually it very much does matter if you're using the RayTrace3D function, which
employs CUDA acceleration. Massively faster than the main CPU(s). My system has
four GTX 580 3GB cards for this (faster than two Titan Blacks, but much cheaper).
Other parts of AE can exploit OpenGL or CUDA to run faster aswell; details on the
Adobe site here:

http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/2012/05/gpu-cuda-opengl-features-in-aft...
http://helpx.adobe.com/after-effects/using/rendering-opengl.html

And indeed on this site, see:

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/2/1019120

I've tested a K5000 with Viewperf, it's quite a lot faster than a 4000, at least
where the GPU is indeed the bottleneck. See:

http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/viewperf.txt

Ian.

SGI Guru


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Larry Wheeler
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 7:07:46 pm

Thank you for all the information! It's been VERY HELPFUL!

I tried changing the "Render Multiple Frames" settings and that made significant improvement after some trial and error. My first attempt, I left it at 2GB per core, and allocated 12 cores to AE. This came back with about the same times, and took about a minute to initialize at start. When I gave it 18 cores at 6GB per core, it ran the fastest I have ever seen it with my test comp. Final time 2:43, which still sounds bad, but usually whenever the text is changed, it's first render out of the change is around 5 minutes. The only time prior it ran that fast is when it re-ran an unchanged comp, which I assume was largely cached, and that's why it ran faster?

Pulling up activity monitor during render showed about 12 cores running at 65 - 75%. Thank you so much for the help today. It's already faster than it's been, thanks to you folks!


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EricBowen
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 10, 2014 at 8:02:57 pm
Last Edited By EricBowen on Jul 10, 2014 at 8:10:28 pm

The amount of ram per core/thread really is comp specific. Depending on the frame resolution, layers/complexity, and FX this fluctuates greatly. What works with ideally with 6GB per thread may not work so efficiently on another comp. This also can change the amount of cores used by the multiframe rendering versus the AE application and other processes currently provisioned by AE. As a general rule though the greater the frame res and amount of layers, the more ram per core you need.

Eric-ADK
Tech Manager
support@adkvideoediting.com


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Ian Mapleson
Re: Upgraded to Quadro K5000 Mac, and almost no speed improvement in AE CS6 or AE CC 2014?
on Jul 11, 2014 at 1:49:32 am

This is why I've been hoping that the X99 chipset will up the max RAM to
128GB or more, but I fear it won't.

Ian.

SGI Guru


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