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How to render graphics in 1080i 50.

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John Mark
How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Jul 29, 2013 at 10:44:19 am

When exporting, I can only see the option to render at 1080p, 720p. How can I render at 1080i 50 to integrate with the black-magic ATEM TVS.

So if anyone can give me step by step instructions, that would be great.

Thank you.

A News Graphic Lover


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Tudor "Ted" Jelescu
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Jul 29, 2013 at 11:14:19 am

What version of AE are you using?
Very important info!

Tudor "Ted" Jelescu
Senior VFX Artist


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John Mark
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Jul 29, 2013 at 11:34:59 am

After Effects CS6

A News Graphic Lover


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Tudor "Ted" Jelescu
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Jul 29, 2013 at 11:56:23 am

Walter beat me to it- you got your answer. For more info:

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/aftereffects/cs/using/WS3878526689cb91655866c11...

Tudor "Ted" Jelescu
Senior VFX Artist


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Walter Soyka
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Jul 29, 2013 at 12:33:13 pm

Ted, don't let me stop you! I gave the "old school" render queue approach -- I assumed when you asked what version he was using that you were going to propose a different technique via Adobe Media Encoder?

It wouldn't be After Effects if there were only one way to do it...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Walter Soyka
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Jul 29, 2013 at 11:43:55 am

[John Mark] "When exporting, I can only see the option to render at 1080p, 720p. How can I render at 1080i 50 to integrate with the black-magic ATEM TVS."

How are you exporting? There are a couple ways...

Work in a 1920x1080 25fps comp. To render, add the comp to the render queue (Ctrl+Shift+/ on Windows, Cmd+Shift+/ on Mac). In the render queue, look at the yellow text next to the words "Render Settings." By default, it will say "Best Settings." Click this, then change "Time Sampling > Field Render" from "Off" to "Upper field first."

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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John Mark
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Jul 29, 2013 at 10:55:03 pm

Thank you both for the help and instructions. So will this playback smoothly on final output (1080i50)? Also the graphic now has lines being produced when using upper fields, how do you get rid of this?

Thanks

A News Graphic Lover


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Dave LaRonde
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Jul 29, 2013 at 11:30:17 pm

Um, you don't. Those lines you see are the "i" in "1080i50". It's the interlacing.

I think you might want to review specifically what you need. There seems to be a bit of confusion.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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John Mark
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Jul 31, 2013 at 11:14:23 am

Using 25fps really eliminates that smooth look I'm after. Is there anyway I can make the graphic produce a much smoother motion in after effects still using 25fps? Not sure if this is possible.

Thanks.

A News Graphic Lover


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Walter Soyka
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Jul 31, 2013 at 11:25:46 am

[John Mark] "Using 25fps really eliminates that smooth look I'm after. Is there anyway I can make the graphic produce a much smoother motion in after effects still using 25fps? Not sure if this is possible."

Frame rate is "temporal resolution." The higher the frame rate, the smoother the motion.

Do you have any video sources in your comp? How are you monitoring your output? The 25 fps comp will be a bit stuttery, but the 1080i50 render with fields on should be silky smooth (since it is refreshing 50 times per second, not 25).

You can get a sense of what this will look like by working in a 50 fps comp -- just make sure you render at 25 fps with fields on for output.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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John Mark
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Jul 31, 2013 at 11:37:20 am

[Walter Soyka] "You can get a sense of what this will look like by working in a 50 fps comp -- just make sure you render at 25 fps with fields on for output.
"


So basically I work in a comp running at these settings; 1080 by 1920 50 frames per second. The render at 25 frames per second in "Best settings" > "Upper fields" > then change from 50 to 25 frames per seconds. All these in the "render queue"

Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

Thank you Walter.

A News Graphic Lover


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Dave LaRonde
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Jul 31, 2013 at 2:59:30 pm

It would really help people if we knew what you need to DELIVER. How your completed work will be used. How it will be played back. Where it will appear. The file specifications you received to do the job.

At the moment, that's a big question mark.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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John Mark
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Jul 31, 2013 at 10:36:56 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "It would really help people if we knew what you need to DELIVER. How your completed work will be used. How it will be played back. Where it will appear. The file specifications you received to do the job.
"


Ok Dave, the graphics are being made for tv segments or shows. The graphics overlay on top of a video signal to indicate what show is on and what show is coming on. I will be also producing simple tickers all made using After Effects CS6.

On final output I will be using Softron New Smart Play-out engine: http://www.softron.tv/products/smartplayoutengine.html - Output will be using a UltraStudio Mini Monitor set at 1080i50.

This is what graphic I'll be using: http://reels.creativecow.net/film/graphic-at-1280-by-720-60fps - The graphic is set at a comp of 1280 by 720 running at 60fps (at the moment, just to show what smoothness I'm looking for).

If I have left anything out Dave, please let me know.

A News Graphic Lover


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Dave LaRonde
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Aug 1, 2013 at 12:13:36 am

I think I might have answered this in the AE Basics forum.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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John Mark
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Aug 1, 2013 at 12:50:10 am

I have rendered my graphics at 25fps using Upper feilds. I stil dont get the smooth motion I'm looking for in 1080i50 (TV 1080i50hz) I don't understand, my vide clips running at 25fps play silky smooth, why not for the graphics?

A News Graphic Lover


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Walter Soyka
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Aug 1, 2013 at 1:58:00 am

[John Mark] "I have rendered my graphics at 25fps using Upper feilds. I stil dont get the smooth motion I'm looking for in 1080i50 (TV 1080i50hz) I don't understand, my vide clips running at 25fps play silky smooth, why not for the graphics?"

How are you monitoring?

Can you post screenshots of your comp settings, your render settings, and your output module?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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John Mark
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Aug 1, 2013 at 2:10:43 am

[Walter Soyka] "How are you monitoring?
"


My final output is going to a HD TV (1080i50hz) using a Black Magic UltraStudio Mini Monitor.

My After effects Settings: http://images.creativecow.net/240404

A News Graphic Lover


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Dave LaRonde
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Aug 1, 2013 at 3:27:19 pm

Are you familiar with the concepts of media containers and codecs? They can have a very great bearing on the smoothness of the playback.

As in, "Are you using the proper media container and codec for your blackmagic card?"

As in, "Do you have the proper storage to support the bitrate for the Blackmagic-recommended media container and codec to which you rendered?"

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Walter Soyka
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Aug 1, 2013 at 7:54:11 pm

[John Mark] "My final output is going to a HD TV (1080i50hz) using a Black Magic UltraStudio Mini Monitor."

And is that what you are watching when you don't see smoothness? Please describe the entire playout process.


[John Mark] "My After effects Settings: http://images.creativecow.net/240404 "

Please also post your render settings so we know what output format you're using.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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John Mark
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Aug 1, 2013 at 10:19:21 pm

[Walter Soyka] "And is that what you are watching when you don't see smoothness? Please describe the entire playout process.
"


Yes, the graphics are running from Softron OnTheAirExpress, then outputting via a UltraStudio mini monitor. This is were I don't see the smoothness, even with upper fields in use.

This is the render settings of "best settings" : http://f1.creativecow.net/6355/6355?uploaded=file

If this is not what your after I apologize and will post the correct information.

As for Dave questions:

As in, "Are you using the proper media container and codec for your blackmagic card?"

All my graphics, I use animation, just for the use of alpha channel.

As in, "Do you have the proper storage to support the bitrate for the Blackmagic-recommended media container and codec to which you rendered?"

I have purchases a new Macbook pro I5, with hardly any usage yet. Video clips play smoothly in a codec "Apple International codec". I have tried converting my graphics in After Effects using the same settings as my video clips, but it does not seem to work still

Thank you both for your time and patience.

A News Graphic Lover


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Dave LaRonde
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Aug 2, 2013 at 1:30:30 pm

[John Mark] "I have purchases a new Macbook pro I5, with hardly any usage yet. Video clips play smoothly in a codec "Apple International codec". I have tried converting my graphics in After Effects using the same settings as my video clips, but it does not seem to work still"

I bet you actually mean "Apple INTERMEDIATE Codec". Two words: it stinks. Never, EVER use it for graphics.

And If you're trying to play back Animation codec files on a laptop, it's no wonder the animations aren't smooth. Your poor hard drive can't keep up with the bit rate necessary for high-quality HD files.

Your goals dictate that you get a far more robust storage solution with much higher throughput than you currently have. I'm not conversant on the latest hardware, but I'm sure the Good Mr. Soyka will have some suggestions.

If you're doing this just for fun, you picked one mighty expensive hobby, sir!

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Walter Soyka
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Aug 2, 2013 at 3:27:25 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "I bet you actually mean "Apple INTERMEDIATE Codec". Two words: it stinks. Never, EVER use it for graphics. "

Dave was a lot kinder to AIC than I would have been... it's utterly horrendous. Avoid it like the plague.

AIC was Apple's proprietary, thin-raster mezzanine format for HDV. It may not support square-pixel 1080i50.


[Dave LaRonde] "Your goals dictate that you get a far more robust storage solution with much higher throughput than you currently have. I'm not conversant on the latest hardware, but I'm sure the Good Mr. Soyka will have some suggestions."

Thank you, Dave!

John, I'd suggest trying to render to Apple ProRes 422 before throwing hardware at it. You should be able to play a stream or two without any trouble.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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John Mark
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Aug 2, 2013 at 5:24:23 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "If you're doing this just for fun, you picked one mighty expensive hobby, sir!
"


I certainly didi!

Thank you both for your time, help and tips. I will try rendering at Apple ProRes and see how I go.

A News Graphic Lover


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John Mark
Re: How to render graphics in 1080i 50.
on Aug 3, 2013 at 1:16:54 pm

Finally! Everything is working like I want it to. The end solution was I had to render at 50fps "using upper fields" and not 25fps. Thank you once again for your help.

A News Graphic Lover


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