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tommaso cicognanired4k: hot to comp
by on Jan 25, 2012 at 2:31:58 pm

Hi all, I'm going to shoot a music video in greens creen with the red one and will pull the keys (and editing) inside AE. I don't know exactly how set the comp in AE: how would be better to work with a 4k comp (r3d) or a downsample 2k tiff? or maybe stay with the original r3d files and then create proxy to work with...
(I'd like to work with 4k files instead of 2k because it gaves me the chance to pan/tilt/scale etc...)
suggestions?

Tommaso Ci



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Walter SoykaRe: red4k: hot to comp
by on Jan 25, 2012 at 2:53:55 pm

Many of your workflow choices may depend on a mix of your deliverable requirements, your system specs, your production schedule, and your own personal patience.

Working at native 4K may be tempting, but the system resource requirements will be very high. A 4096×2304 frame is a little more than 4.5x larger than a 1920×1080 frame, so you'll need a lot more memory, and you'll render a lot slower.

If you have a lower-end system and want to work with native R3D, you might benefit from a RED Rocket card. If you don't want to get the card, you might be better off transcoding first.

You can also always mix and match -- do most shots at 2K from 2K transcodes or proxies, but do the handful of shots you want to reframe at 2K from the 4K originals.

I'd absolutely suggest that you test a couple different workflows to see what will work best for you. Bring in a couple shots, try them with different workflows, and see which is working the best for your own situation.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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tommaso cicognaniRe: red4k: hot to comp
by on Jan 25, 2012 at 3:02:07 pm

thanks Walter for help. I thought that work with4k r3d files would be a pain (I hava a macpro 8core with 16gb ram)and I think it would be better to find a better solution to relink media at the end (as I usually do in FCP with media manager).
Is it a way to do the same thing in AE: work with a 2ktimeline in tiff and, at the end, reconvert all the footage (and graphics) to 4k r3d and do the final color correction?



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Walter SoykaRe: red4k: hot to comp
by on Jan 25, 2012 at 3:07:25 pm

[tommaso cicognani] "Is it a way to do the same thing in AE: work with a 2ktimeline in tiff and, at the end, reconvert all the footage (and graphics) to 4k r3d and do the final color correction"

You can use AE's proxy feature [link].

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Dave LaRondeRe: red4k: hot to comp
by on Jan 25, 2012 at 3:00:43 pm

[tommaso cicognani] "...will pull the keys (and editing) inside AE..."

Pulling a key in AE is one thing. Editing in AE is something you should avoid at all costs. Don't you have an actual video editing application you can use?

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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tommaso cicognaniRe: red4k: hot to comp
by on Jan 25, 2012 at 3:06:48 pm

hi Dave, sure I got premiere or FCP and I'm going to edit there and not in AE. But from my previous experience (music video in greenscreen) I would spend much of the time inside ae and so I'm just finding a way to be faster retaining the 4k files as musch as I can.



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Dave LaRondeRe: red4k: hot to comp
by on Jan 25, 2012 at 4:08:07 pm

Sorry, but I still say you should edit first, then do the AE work. Video editing applications work in real time, and AE does not. Here are just a fews things that are far, far easier to do in an editing application than AE:
  • Matched-action cuts
  • Syncing video to audio
  • Previewing multiple takes
  • Trimming in & out points
  • Revising edits
  • Creating multiple versions of the same cut
This is just a partial list. And here's a very important consideration for you:

[tommaso cicognani] "Is it a way to do the same thing in AE: work with a 2ktimeline in tiff and, at the end, reconvert all the footage (and graphics) to 4k r3d and do the final color correction?"

Not really, in your case. I wouldn't recommend it. AE can indeed work with proxies, but one of your prime tasks in AE will be pulling chroma keys. If you chroma key the proxies, the footage will eventually change, and so the chroma key effect settings also will have to change. You would do the same work twice.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Walter SoykaRe: red4k: hot to comp
by on Jan 25, 2012 at 4:21:19 pm

[Dave LaRonde] "If you chroma key the proxies, the footage will eventually change, and so the chroma key effect settings would also will have to change."

True, but I'd disagree that makes a proxy workflow unworkable. You just have to treat effects the same way you treat an offline/online edit.

Don't spend a lot of time keying proxies, any more than you would grading them. Use rough eyedropper-click keying and make the creative decisions upfront while previewing at low-res.

Once the creative compositing has been roughed in and approved, then you can move on to finishing.

I do agree 100% about locking the cut first.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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ben g ungurenRe: red4k: hot to comp
by on Jan 25, 2012 at 10:13:47 pm

Here's my workflow (I do keying with the RED a lot these days):

- Editor pulls rough keys of whatever she wants, puts it all together in Avid or FCP.

- As specific shots or sequences are "locked", she sends me a shot list with in and out points of each shot that needs keying, along with info for background plates. Sometimes she'll just put clip names and timecodes over each clip and exports that. Sometimes she'll send me an XML, which I can take into Premiere and then port over to AE.

- (KEY!!!!) Now that I know the shots, I go into RedCine, do some basic color correction, then export 16-bit DPX sequences with 2-second handles. As Dave mentioned, sometimes I will export full 4K, sometimes 2K, depending on the need.

- Work with the DPX footage from there on out.

One thing to keep in mind is that R3D files get messy if you want to do media management after the project is over. You don't just need the proxy file, but all the files that the proxy references, and in my experience that kind of management needs to be done manually. Not to mention that 10 years from now whether or not that r3d will be read in the same way is suspect. An image sequence is much more reliable IMO, so I'd get into image-sequence land as quickly as possible. R3Ds give you amazing latitude, and you can save your RedCine project in case you need to reexport with different settings. But a 16-bit image has everything you'll need (assuming you do a good initial color correction, and didn't clip anything important!).

Ben Unguren
Motion Graphics & Editing
http://www.mostlydocumentary.com


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