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ICC for Videos on WIDE GAMUT monitors

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javier gonzalezICC for Videos on WIDE GAMUT monitors
by on Dec 7, 2011 at 8:17:42 pm

let me explain

1) I have a wide gamut monitor like so many others today
2) the post of my film is being done in AE CS5.5, in 32 bits,
Color managed in the HDTV Rec 709 Color Space
3) My monitor is obviously calibrated

4) If i export Stills from the post, with the SRGB color profile embedded in the output settings, i can load that still into photoshop, web browsers or anywhere and it looks perfect, wonderful. The still in the After effects composition screen matches perfectly with the still in a color managed web browser (firefox, IE9) or photoshop, great

5) The problem comes when i export an H264 video instead of a still.
After effects still doesnt allow me to embed an ICC profile in an H264 video (why?), in the output settings i choose SRGB in the color management but the video still wont have an ICC profile attached to it
( i would like somebody to explain why in 2012 this is still not possible? )

6) because of that, and having a wide gamut monitor, when i load that video into any windows Video player, or into any web browser, they see the file as an UNTAGGED video, and process it over the wide gamut color space of the monitor rendering the contrast and color Wrong.
Again, this only happens with the H264 video, Stills with ICC profiles attach work perfectly, which shows that if we could have ICC profiles embedded in the videos the problem with wide gamut monitors would end immediately

7) Even without embedded profiles, the problems would end if applications and browsers took into account the current monitor profile, but for some reason, they dont! . Apparently for what i read, these apps and browsers ASSUME (?) that all monitors are SRGB monitors. Is this possible in 2012, i am speechless beyond measure.

8) It is time for the industry to wake up to WIDE GAMUT MONITORS, which in case they havent realized are EVERYWHERE TODAY

9) So, ADOBE, when will you allow for ICC profiles to be embedded in videos, including H264 ones?

10) So, makers of IE, Firefox, Chrome, VLC Player, Windows video player, quicktime etc, when will you start treating UNTAGGED videos and images according to the existing Monitor calibrated profiles instead of ASSUMING whatever you feel like?

it is simply incredible that having done such a delicate job within after effects , just because i have a wide gamut monitor (perfectly calibrated) i cannot find a single Video Player or Web browser that will show the H264 video correctly in the wide gamut monitor today in 2012

can anybody give some light, maybe there is somewhere a video player in windows that actually solves this problem?

in any case the industry has to wake up to wide gamut monitors, please, we are in 2012

again i want to emphasize again that the issues above only happen with video. Stills work perfectly across all apps, browsers and all, as i can ship them with icc profiles inside and this works wonderfully everywhere.

It is videos that give the trouble.

thank you for reading


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Walter SoykaRe: ICC for Videos on WIDE GAMUT monitors
by on Dec 7, 2011 at 9:28:04 pm

Try the open-source Media Player Classic Home Cinema [link].

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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javier gonzalezRe: ICC for Videos on WIDE GAMUT monitors
by on Dec 7, 2011 at 9:39:17 pm

yes, some people have recommended the software
Media Player Classic Home Cinema

i already tried it
however it is not working for me,
the video still shows with the same problems than in other non
color aware applications

i have tried all the combinations of values in the media player classic home cinema software, but with no luck

renderer settings - color management - enabled + options below


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Walter SoykaRe: ICC for Videos on WIDE GAMUT monitors
by on Dec 8, 2011 at 4:32:54 am

Have you profiled your monitor and configured system-wide color management?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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javier gonzalezRe: ICC for Videos on WIDE GAMUT monitors
by on Dec 8, 2011 at 4:41:43 am

obviously yes, if not i wouldnt be posting here :)

1) i have profiled my system yes with a good color profiler,
to demonstrate that it works, as i wrote above, Still images look exactly identical in

* After Effects
* Photoshop
* Firefox or IE9 browsers

Identical, therefore my profiling is ok

2) again yes, system wide color management indeed

a) color management on in after effects,
color space is REC 709, when i export i convert to SRGB,
in the case of stills ICC profile gets embedded in file,
in the case of video, video cannot take ICC embedded as we know
in AE

b) I use Firefox latest and IE9 which are color managed
c) my computer is color calibrated, and again
to prove it still images look exactly the same all across all apps and softwares etc

the issue is with videos. That stills are perfect demonstrates my system is well calibrated.
Videos are the only problem.

I see all around the web people complaining about problems with wide gamut monitors + STILL IMAGES, but i hear nothing about VIDEOS

i would love to hear more about people having issues like me with Videos + Wide Gamut monitors

and any suggestions, tips, help

there must be lots of After Effect and Colorist Experts out there
dealing with Wide Gamut Monitors and wanting to see their videos in browsers or through standard windows video players

some people have suggested to switch the wide gamut monitor to SRGB, this is possible yes, but its not recommended for complex reasons which i wont bore you with here

looking forward to any help :)


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Walter SoykaRe: ICC for Videos on WIDE GAMUT monitors... any other ideas?
by on Dec 8, 2011 at 5:17:41 am

Sorry for asking an obvious question, Javier -- most of the color management questions here start at a significantly more basic level than yours.

I don't have a wide gamut monitor here to try this with (I'm still using an external HD-SDI monitor for color-critical evaluations). I'm sorry I can't be more helpful -- hopefully someone else will chime in.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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javier gonzalezRe: ICC for Videos on WIDE GAMUT monitors... any other ideas?
by on Dec 8, 2011 at 5:24:51 am

Walter,
your questions are great,
i will keep researching and hopefully i find some light,

i have read that adobe was time ago considering adding to after effects
the capability to embed icc profiles on quicktime files, as apparently the latest quicktime spec can read icc profiles,

anyway, lets see,
using an external HD monitor like you do is great,
for critical color evaluation in any case, we can have something like what you do or anyway within AE color managed, and in a profiled monitor, evaluation is good

the issue is more, any of you, once you produce a video, im sure sometimes you want to display it on the internet for example,
all right, now, you know that tons of people are getting wide gamut monitors out there, are people aware that their final video is not going to look ok in people's wide gamut monitors unless
a) those wide gamut monitors happen to be set to the SRGB mode
b) the internet browser or video player happens to be truly color managed, which means is able to interpret Untagged material, as currently videos are untagged

well
good luck to us all :)


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Walter SoykaRe: ICC for Videos on WIDE GAMUT monitors... any other ideas?
by on Dec 8, 2011 at 5:38:27 am

[javier gonzalez] "i will keep researching and hopefully i find some light,"

If you find something, please do report back -- I'd love to hear about it. Every serious discussion about color management for video playback I've seen seems inconclusive.


[javier gonzalez] "i have read that adobe was time ago considering adding to after effects
the capability to embed icc profiles on quicktime files, as apparently the latest quicktime spec can read icc profiles"


I got really excited when I read that, too, because inconsistent color and gamma rendition has been an issue plaguing QuickTime for far too long. I haven't tried Lion, but color rendition with QuickTime Player and QuickTime X was still an inconsistent mess on Snow Leopard. I've just recently started using Windows for work, and I don't have much faith that QuickTime Player will be any better here.


[javier gonzalez] "you know that tons of people are getting wide gamut monitors out there, are people aware that their final video is not going to look ok in people's wide gamut monitors"

Hardware is definitely ahead of software here, and it's a shame.

I wonder how many wide-gamut displays are just running in that crummy sRGB mode...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


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Cristian BuruRe: ICC for Videos on WIDE GAMUT monitors
by on Jul 17, 2012 at 10:31:38 pm

I know this is a late response but for reference only, MPC-HC does work.
My setup: Dell 2711 wide gamut profiled with i1Display Pro & BasicColor

In the image you have same frame from a MOV file originating from a 5D Mark III. (BTW, now 5D Mark III uses Rec. 709 as colour matrix).
AE is colour managed using as a workspace profile Rec.709.
MPC-HC is colour managed.
VLC is not colour managed, hence the shift in colour.

A good thing to know is that the graphic card can do very strange and undocumented things to the YUV to RGB conversion. The trick is to download the K-Lite Codec Pack (MPC-HC is included) and bypass the grapic card for this conversion.

If you look closely there is a very slight contrast/gamma shift between AE and MPC-HC which I have to investigate.
Under colour maangement in MPC-HC u can specify the input type and I presume that the player assumes Rec. 709 for HDTV type.

I'm also puzzled that this is the only colour managed player available because even for normal gamut monitors it's important to have the right colours.



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