ADOBE AFTER EFFECTS: Forum Expressions Tutorials Creative Cloud

50i problem in AFX (image attachment)

COW Forums : Adobe After Effects

<< PREVIOUS   •   FAQ   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Norman Stansfield
50i problem in AFX (image attachment)
on Aug 5, 2011 at 12:52:51 pm

Hello, I've tried to find solution to my problem, at start it seems obvious but it's probably not.

I have a footage from PANASONIC FZ-100 camera. It records neat 1920x1080 in 50i mode (*.MTS file). When I play the footage in a typical player, like Media Player Classic (klite codec pack), it looks sharp and motion is smooth like a charm. When I pause playback, I can extract the frame (Save As..)

The problem begins after import the footage to AFX. It detects footage as 25p, I set up separate fields option. The fields that AFX sees look much different, much worse than fields seen by Media Player. It does not matter if Upper or Lower field setting, it looks bad, a significant information loss is present:



I can't believe that if typical media player can process the information, and AFX not. I am not sure if there is something wrong with Interlace setup or just media player codecs have better deinterlacing alghoritms, or something else. What to do, in order to avoid the problem and edit the footage with full information present?


Return to posts index

Dave LaRonde
Re: 50i problem in AFX (image attachment)
on Aug 5, 2011 at 2:45:23 pm

I'm going to guess that you accidentally shot in progressive scan. You may not have intended to do so, but it certainly sounds like you did!

On an unrelated topic, I see that you're using the Klite codec pac. You shouldn't. It absolutely, positively does NOT work well in AE. Adobe employees keep warning people off this codec package, and I'm just passing along the message.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Norman Stansfield
Re: 50i problem in AFX (image attachment)
on Aug 5, 2011 at 7:13:47 pm

Dave, This camera has no option for progressive scan.

Walter, Yes, I am a professional, I am sure that view resolution is okay.

Anyways, what Klite pack has to do with Adobe projects? Premiere Pro CS 5 has the same problem as after effects, even with this new pronounced support of all native codecs. Indeed, there is a 50i AVCHD setting in premiere project setup menu, but the problem remains the same: Looks like Adobe (premiere and afx) cannot recieve the full information contained in fottage, while simple player can.
I experimented with all possible interlace settings, even fields sequence (WWSWW etc), but with no sucess.

Maybe I'll try to convert this footage with TMPG express to uncompressed avi file and will see what will happen.


Return to posts index


Dave LaRonde
Re: 50i problem in AFX (image attachment)
on Aug 5, 2011 at 7:43:45 pm

Oh, I saw the term Klite in your initial post. Apparently you're just using the player, right?

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Darby Edelen
Re: 50i problem in AFX (image attachment)
on Aug 5, 2011 at 8:29:20 pm

What you're showing from AE looks about right for the kind of footage (lots of red) and codec (AVCHD uses 4:2:0 chroma compression) that you're using.

If you don't like the way that it looks in AE you could tell it not to separate the fields, but then you won't really be able to work with the footage at all in AE.

As a test, try rendering your footage directly out from AE with fields and see if the footage on the other end actually suffers. It should look just as good as your original footage, and if it does then you probably won't need to worry about how it looks in AE.

Also there are some methods you can use to smooth your 4:2:0 chroma channels so that they're not as jaggy. That may help the footage as well. What I'd recommend is duplicating the footage, setting the upper layer to the 'Color' blend mode and applying a 'Noise & Grain > Median' filter with a radius of 2, then a 'Blur & Sharpen > Fast Blur' filter with a radius of 2 and 'Repeat Edge Pixels' enabled.

Darby Edelen


Return to posts index

Norman Stansfield
Re: 50i problem in AFX (image attachment)
on Aug 5, 2011 at 10:13:37 pm

Darby, Thank you, I'll try your method, but to be exact: By rendering to fields this 50i footage you mean to set up the 25 progressive sequence, interpret the footage as 25 frames with no fields (which turns the footage even uglier)and render it with "render to fields" option set in the render settings? Then I get a bunch of *.tga's which are scanline-look... Then what?

I usually work with progressive footage, this interlace thing is pain in the a** from the previous decade. I still don't get it: how it is possible that adobe software see fields in a single frame totally different than a media player? I thought it's a binary business - it works or not, I can't imagine from alghoritmic point of view how different interpretation can be. In the image on the left some parts are nicely blurred, at the image from AE (right) the same parts are jaggy as hell. It's not only about interlace, it's something more. You're probably right about chroma, but i testet it on blue footage too and the problem is also present with a blue color.


Return to posts index


Dave LaRonde
Re: 50i problem in AFX (image attachment)
on Aug 5, 2011 at 10:45:28 pm

[Norman Stansfield] "I usually work with progressive footage, this interlace thing is pain in the a** from the previous decade. "

Here's an easy rule of thumb: When interpreting the footage in AE, you separate the fields in its field order, and you render in the appropriate field order for the file you're delivering.

For example: I want to dress up some 1080i 59.94 footage, and I want to render a file appropriate for making a widescreen NTSC DVD. The 1080i footage is upper field first, but the SD file will be lower field first. Thus, I interpret the footage as upper field first, and I render lower field first. AE handles the rest.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Darby Edelen
Re: 50i problem in AFX (image attachment)
on Aug 6, 2011 at 12:01:29 am

What I'm suggesting is to leave your footage interpretation alone after you import the file. This should be witth fields separated. Then put your footage in a composition and render it with fields (the render setting you mentioned).

Check the rendered footage in your media viewer and see if the quality has been lowered.

Darby Edelen


Return to posts index

Norman Stansfield
Re: 50i problem in AFX (image attachment)
on Aug 7, 2011 at 8:20:07 am

Okay, but what format should I render to? As original *.MTS AVCHD video? I am not sure if I can render back to avchd in AE.

You know, as soon as afx doesn't change anything but only displays pixels in a wrong way, it's okay.
BUT:
if I apply a retime effect plugin, it will probably work on this low-information video, which is annoying.

Jesus, two days wasted for such a stupid thing and still no effect :)


Return to posts index


Dave LaRonde
Re: 50i problem in AFX (image attachment)
on Aug 8, 2011 at 4:28:54 pm

[Norman Stansfield] "Okay, but what format should I render to? As original *.MTS AVCHD video?"

I don't recall seeing which version of AE you run. If it is NOT AE 10 or 10.5, your footage could be giving you fits and here's why:

Dave's Stock Answer #1:

If the footage you imported into AE is any kind of the following -- footage in an HDV acquisition codec, MPEG1, MPEG2, AVCHD, mp4, mts, m2t, H.261 or H.264 -- you need to convert it to a different codec.

These kinds of footage use temporal, or interframe compression. They have keyframes at regular intervals, containing complete frame information. However, the frames in between do NOT have complete information. Interframe codecs toss out duplicated information.

In order to maintain peak rendering efficiency, AE needs complete information for each and every frame. But because these kinds of footage contain only partial information, AE freaks out, resulting in a wide variety of problems.

I'm a Mac guy, so I like to convert to Quicktime movies in the Animation or PNG codecs; both are lossless. I'll use Apple's Compressor, Adobe Media Encoder or Quicktime Pro to do it.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Norman Stansfield
Re: 50i problem in AFX (image attachment)
on Aug 8, 2011 at 5:39:46 pm

Thank you,
problem solved: You're right, AE simply freaked out with keyframing. I used tmpeg express to convert AVCHD.mts files to bitmap sequences, and these frames were

Altough, I tried to do the same in After Effects, output frames were rendered with the problem

So, the conclusion is: AVCHD files have to be converted into different format (preferably image sequence with fields) before editing After Effects. But the converter can't be After Effects itself.

The only downside is that after converting into image sequence, you lose fluidity of work and a lot of hard disk space. Is there any non-sequential video format that you would recommend for PC editing? I used Cineform in the past - it is great, but its patented HD link converter is unable to read AVCHD files (!)

Thanks for your help again,


Return to posts index

Dave LaRonde
Re: 50i problem in AFX (image attachment)
on Aug 8, 2011 at 5:54:22 pm

[Norman Stansfield] "....you lose fluidity of work and a lot of hard disk space. Is there any non-sequential video format that you would recommend for PC editing?"

Yeah, you do lose flexibility.

Unfortunately, I'm a primarily a Mac guy -- I edit in FCP -- but I do use AE at home on a Windows box. I take my files home as ProRes HQ video, and I render PNG sequences in AE. The file sizes are huge, but for the sake of preserving image quality, it's worth it to me.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index


Walter Soyka
Re: 50i problem in AFX (image attachment)
on Aug 5, 2011 at 2:49:23 pm

Are you sure the AE viewer set to full resolution [link] for that frame grab?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]