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Kill shudder on horzontal movement. Interlace or Motion Blur?

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Kevin Reiner
Kill shudder on horzontal movement. Interlace or Motion Blur?
on Jul 14, 2011 at 4:20:46 pm

Smacking my head against a wall here.

I have a :30 spot that is a constant pan of video boxes right to left with some text that moves with the video. Working in a ProRes 422 HQ comp. When I export progressive, it shudders like crazy in FCP. I tried motion blur to kill it, but that muddied up the text to much.

So instead, I exported deinterlaced UFF and it looked great in FCP on our Flanders monitor. We then send that out to 5 local stations using their preferred video codec and size. Some take HD, some SD, some HD and then convert to SD and all of them in different formats. Big pain in the behind. Well, now I'm getting complaints that the spot looks bad on air. Don't know what to do. Why would it look great on my broadcast monitor, but then look blurry on air? Not a newbie here, but feel like one.

Any suggestions?
-Kevin

Mac Pro 2 x 3 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon
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Dell Display (23" flat panel)
ATI Radeon HD 5770
AJA Kona LSi SD/HD capture card
Rourke 16 TB
Flanders 2460

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Dave LaRonde
Re: Kill shudder on horzontal movement. Interlace or Motion Blur?
on Jul 14, 2011 at 5:46:08 pm

[Kevin Reiner] "When I export progressive, it shudders like crazy in FCP. I tried motion blur to kill it, but that muddied up the text to much."

You're probably experiencing a phenomenon known as Judder, wherein horizontal motion and frame rate don't get along together. Read on....



[Kevin Reiner] "I exported deinterlaced UFF and it looked great in FCP on our Flanders monitor... now I'm getting complaints that the spot looks bad on air."

If UFF means Upper Field First, you kinda shot yourself in the foot by deinterlacing in AE: you reduced your vertical resolution by half. AE doesn't do a proper job of it.

For diagnostic purposes, it's crucial to know the horizontal & vertical resolution and the frame rate of the video in the spot, plus the same information for your AE comp. I suspect it was 1080 59.94i, but I don't know that for sure. It wouldn't hurt to know the type of camera, the footage's codec and your NLE, either.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Walter Soyka
Re: Kill shudder on horzontal movement. Interlace or Motion Blur?
on Jul 14, 2011 at 5:50:39 pm

[Kevin Reiner] "I exported deinterlaced UFF and it looked great in FCP on our Flanders monitor."

I'm not sure why this would help... do you really mean deinterlaced UFF? Or did you mean that you rendered with fields, UFF? I could certainly see how that would help.

You may want different renders for different deliverables: you can render 1080i29.97, 486i29.97, and 480i29.97 with fields, but you should render 720p59.94 progressively.


[Kevin Reiner] "Why would it look great on my broadcast monitor, but then look blurry on air?"

I see at least one reversed-field error during ads on my local cable carrier daily. It's absolutely maddening.

If you know what station the fuzzy ad aired on, you might try to talk to an engineer, but sadly, it doesn't seem like image quality is of much concern for many local stations...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
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Kevin Reiner
Re: Kill shudder on horzontal movement. Interlace or Motion Blur?
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:49:21 pm

Thanks Dave and Walter,

You guys are great benefits to this forum.

Let me clarify:

1. All the video is 29.97 ProRes 422 (1920x1080) shot on Sony HDW f900
2. I didn't touch interpret footage.
3. Comp is also 29.97 ProRes 422 (1920x1080)
4. Videos are scaled and cropped randomly.
5. I rendered with fields (upper field first).
6. Also rendered a sidecropped 480i29.97 with fields (lower field first)for SD delivery.
7. For delivery I have to provide:
a. DVC Pro HD 1920 X 1080i
b. mpeg2 both 1080i29.97 & 486i29.97
c. .h264 both 1080i29.97 & 486i29.97

The client has told me that the commercial looks bad on TV, but when I ask what channel? was it HD or SD? etc. they just say it looks bad. They don't realize how many variables are involved here.

And yes Dave, it judders. I always say shudders for some reason. I've killed judder before on similar moves, so its nothing new to me, but this one I can't get past.

Thanks for your help,
Kevin

PS Here's a snippet of the video -

judder problems



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Kevin Reiner
Re: Kill shudder on horzontal movement. Interlace or Motion Blur?
on Jul 14, 2011 at 6:58:21 pm

One note. I just checked my settings and it seems like when AE auto interprets footage, it is random on whether the clips are upper or lower. It has most of them set to lower and about 1/4 set to upper. I'm going to change all of them to upper and see if that helps at all. Is it worth clicking "preserve edges"?

The thing is, it was usually the text that was most noticable, so I don't know if this is the fix I'm looking for.

Mac Pro 2 x 3 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon
32GB Memory
Dual-channel 4Gb Fibre Channel PCI Express card
Dell Display (23" flat panel)
ATI Radeon HD 5770
AJA Kona LSi SD/HD capture card
Rourke 16 TB
Flanders 2460

SOFTWARE
Mac OS X 10.6.5
FCP 7
After Effects CS5
Boris Continuum
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Zaxwerks Invig


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Kill shudder on horzontal movement. Interlace or Motion Blur?
on Jul 14, 2011 at 7:09:33 pm

Dang! Cain't see the Flash stuff, but ah can tell this ain't yer first AE rodeo, pardner.

Since I'm certain you know the perils of shooting at 23.976 without removing pulldown, I can eliminate one problem. I think the problem now lies in not separating the footage's fields properly -- ESPECIALLY if it was shot interlaced. I'd do it for progressive footage as well. For 1080, that's upper field first, of course.

Then I'd also render in upper field first, WITH Motion Blur applied, if necessary. By rendering with fields, you automatically reduce the amount of blur by half.

What are you using to transcode your AE files to the various codecs?

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Kevin Reiner
Re: Kill shudder on horzontal movement. Interlace or Motion Blur?
on Jul 14, 2011 at 7:20:52 pm

Hey Dave,

The footage was shot at 29.97. I just started another render with all videos interpreted upper field. Rendering out upper field with slight motion blur. We'll see how it goes. I've also scaled the text up slightly to avoid it getting too muddy.

I use Episode for exporting final files. I have no idea what happens to those files once they get to the stations. Really what I'm looking for are some peers telling me that I'm on the correct track and that the stations need to look at their workflow. Do I need to tell them that the spots were rendered with fields?

Thanks again for your time,
-Kevin

Mac Pro 2 x 3 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon
32GB Memory
Dual-channel 4Gb Fibre Channel PCI Express card
Dell Display (23" flat panel)
ATI Radeon HD 5770
AJA Kona LSi SD/HD capture card
Rourke 16 TB
Flanders 2460

SOFTWARE
Mac OS X 10.6.5
FCP 7
After Effects CS5
Boris Continuum
Sapphire Plug Ins
All Trapcode Plugs
Zaxwerks Invig


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Kill shudder on horzontal movement. Interlace or Motion Blur?
on Jul 14, 2011 at 8:36:21 pm

[Kevin Reiner] "I use Episode for exporting final files"

Well, now I'm just jealous. I wish I had Episode... no problems with that software, no sir!




[Kevin Reiner] "Do I need to tell them that the spots were rendered with fields? "

Probably not. As long as the 1080 video is interpreted as upper field first, 1080 stuff is rendered upper field first and the SD rendered lower field first, you should be okay.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Kevin Reiner
Re: Kill shudder on horzontal movement. Interlace or Motion Blur?
on Jul 19, 2011 at 1:11:19 pm

After sending them a new file that I knew was exactly what they needed:

station: It's still looking weird.
me: explain weird
station: weird horizontal blurry lines
me: thats due to the field rendering
station: I tried getting rid of that by deinterlacing.
me: no, don't do that. It is supposed to be that way.
station: well it doesn't look right.
me: have you looked at it on another monitor?
station: just on mine
me: is yours a broadcast monitor
station: I'm on my laptop
me: You have to view it on a broadcast monitor.

20 mins later:

station: yeah, its looking better now.

------------

ARGH. I love HD, but there are times that I really miss the simplicity of the BetaSP standard.

Mac Pro 2 x 3 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon
32GB Memory
Dual-channel 4Gb Fibre Channel PCI Express card
Dell Display (23" flat panel)
ATI Radeon HD 5770
AJA Kona LSi SD/HD capture card
Rourke 16 TB
Flanders 2460

SOFTWARE
Mac OS X 10.6.5
FCP 7
After Effects CS5
Boris Continuum
Sapphire Plug Ins
All Trapcode Plugs
Zaxwerks Invig


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