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Scott Pictures
Archiving
on Jan 14, 2006 at 11:05:40 pm

I had the idea to archive the contents of the 4GB card onto 1 Data DVD. That way I would have a backup of the contents of each card to go back to in case of drive failure or nuclear fallout. I imagine once blue-ray drives and bigger P2 cards come out I could continue this method.

I was just wanting some feedback on this plan of mine.

Scott Pictures
Your Full Service Picture and Movie Studio


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toke lahti
Re: Archiving
on Jan 15, 2006 at 10:26:57 am

I have the same idea. And because the new MacBook does not have dl-dvd, it can't backup 8GB cards and I'm still waiting for better model...


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David Battistella
Re: Archiving
on Jan 15, 2006 at 4:35:20 pm


Hey Guys,

There has been a lot of talk about this stuff on these forums. P2 is really a borrow from peter to pay Paul format. It is designed to take the high tape cost out of ENG NEWS applications. For a single user it make less sense.

P2 is a great concept, but it does not start to pay for itself in smaller production until far down the road. Yes, it is convienient and it allows us to record HD material in a small format camera but we still want an ulitmate back up. Let's say I shoot an hour of HD on a Varicam. I can have another three or four hours ready to go in the camera bag. I have the shoot tapes, it takes me one hour to trnasfer the tapes, the media is in my machine and the tapes are on the shelf. I have it all, Digital media on my hard drive that I can edit with (sure I wasted an hour of my time to capture it) and a nice backup sitting on the shelf on a tape. At most an hour to recapture it.

Now I have P2. I can't have as many P2 cards as tapes (because of the huge inital cost of P2 cards) So I have two or three. Great. So let's say I shoot an hour of P2. I come back to the studio, I have to transfer the contents of the card (let's say it an half an hour instead of an hour) great I saved a half an hour. Now I wipe the P2 card and the only place that media exists is on my hard drive. Obviously I want a backup of that media becuase if I loos that, I loose my show. So right away I do one of two things. I buy a Firewire drive and make a quick backup of that media OR I burn the media to DVD's. To burn the media to DVD's I have to open a toast file (create and burn a disk and verify the disk (BECAUSE IT IS MY ONLY BACKUP) and that might only take a half hour or so.

Geez, we are back up to that hour of digitizing.

Now let's say I took option A and went to firewire


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john sharaf
Re: Archiving
on Jan 15, 2006 at 8:18:26 pm

David,

I have to agree with your analysis. It seems to me that P2 workflow exists for three reasons; mainly as a media to record DVPRO100 HD without the need of an expensive deck in a cheap camera, secondly to accomodate the news folks demands for a media that is a computer file to eliminate capture and third (as an included benefit) to create a recoding media that will survive high g-force and other shocks. I can imaging that the future P2 Varicam (2007?) will be able to use the cards (perhaps in a striped configuration) to record a higher format than DVPRO100, such a D5 or a higher frame rate for slo-mo like 120 fps.

For most production however, I still see originating on tape to be the best method of both moving the product to the computer environment for editing and providing at the same time an archival master.

This is not to say that in a few years time when the effect of Moore's Law has lowered the price of the P2 card to $ .70/Gb, which is what the best priced DVPRO100 tape is now (32 minute Yellow label @ $22), and has expanded the capacity of the card to usable lengths (like 32 Gb), it will not realize its ultimate potential. But the evolution of the card slots in the recently announced laptop computers does not bode well for the P2 cards longevity, and this may effect the progress of Moore's law based on supply and demand factors not stimulation further evolution.

I don't want to be pesimistic about all this, I'm very high on the possibilities of the HVX200
and am very anxious to get the several units I've had on order since last NAB, but I'm constantly reminded how the manufacturers are all beta testing their products on us, and how competition has driven rival technologies to the detrement of both profession and consumer users (for example Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD).

I'm not asking for pity or anything, I'll buy these cameras, and use them to make money, but it's not too satisfying to participate in such a temporary or short-lived phenomenon. I was definately spoiled by the thirty year life of my 16mm cameras and then by the fifteen year life of my Betacams (which are actually still in use). This purchase (the HVX's) will be the first I've ever made where I can see the obscelecence before I even receive the unit. For that matter, if I'm forced to buy 4Gb cards, they are essentially obscelete on arrival. If this is the trend of the future, I'd say we're all on treadmill to nowhere!


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tony salgado
Re: Archiving
on Jan 15, 2006 at 9:00:01 pm

John,


Well said.

Ain't it the truth.



Tony Salgado


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Drizzt_G
Re: Archiving
on Jan 15, 2006 at 8:23:52 pm

Thanks for the info David. It gives us a good perspective of what a HVX200 workflow would be like for a small company that doesn't have the money to buy tons of P2 cards.



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tony salgado
Re: Archiving
on Jan 15, 2006 at 9:20:20 pm



David,


The only other way to get around this is to do the copying on location in the field and set up an assembly line workflow.


Too major issues- The additional cost to hire an IT literate person to be solely responsible for the xfer's. You don't want to hire a warm body fourteen year old PA who thinks he understand the importance of the digital files. After all he did figured out how to play an Xbox in under a hour.

2)The additional gear to bring to the shooting location (laptop,external hard drives, P2 reader, or even a desktop PC if you really want fast xfer and storage.

3)The physical area assigned to do the copying. You will not want to be doing this in a dusty, hot, humid area (ie on the beach, by the roadside of a dusty country road) if indeed you value your P2 original masters and the resulting copies on the hard drives. (see my posting below regarding the cause of Hard drive failures and the root of the problem being enviromental use and storage of the drives.)

3) The time to transfer, confirm the data is ok and release back the P2 cards to the shooting crew.


What this all boils down to is 1) the camera is cheap but the workflow will add more time, manpower and gear. So each producer has to do the math to see if the savings, risks and gains are all worth it on the backend when all is said and done.

The workflow described might be manageable when the camera is used for B-roll shots but it could get quite tricky if the camera is the principal camera shooting non stop 10-14 hrs a day.

My personal solution to all this is to wait it out and see how a clear workflow is established or hold out for the Grass Valley Infinity system.

The number of hoops you subject yourself too with any new format is subject to your pain threshold and age. It seems the younger you are the more accepting you will be. I imagine alot of this has to do with the amount of income, risk and much adventure you are capable of.

The older and wiser alot of us "old timer's" are the less forgiving we are as our livelihood depends on a solid history and future of success. I am much more accepting of any new format once the back end workflow, cost, and interchange is all worked out and in place for good.


Tony Salgado



My motto- "If you can't edit it.... then don't shoot it".


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gary adcock
Re: Archiving
on Jan 17, 2006 at 7:27:08 pm

[tony salgado] "You don't want to hire a warm body fourteen year old PA who thinks he understand the importance of the digital files. After all he did figured out how to play an Xbox in under a hour."

com'on tony -- he could probably program all of the VCR's correctly too.

[tony salgado] "My personal solution to all this is to wait it out and see how a clear workflow is established or hold out for the Grass Valley Infinity system."

Sorry-- I will not ever be able to use anything that has iomega media as it's foundation. I still have nightmares about the now infamous Jaz Drive "clicking" angrily at me in the background, destroying every piece of media I try to get it to read.

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA


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Ron Shook
Re: Archiving
on Jan 17, 2006 at 8:29:49 pm

Gary,

[gary adcock] "Sorry-- I will not ever be able to use anything that has iomega media as it's foundation. I still have nightmares about the now infamous Jaz Drive "clicking" angrily at me in the background, destroying every piece of media I try to get it to read."

Proprietary scare tactics aren't becoming. Either REV works or it doesn't, and I find it incomprehensible that TGV would have this much riding on something that doesn't work. Every company makes blunders at one time or another and perhaps Iomega has made more than some, but it still follows that you can be as good as your current products, however good they are.

Ron Shook



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Graeme Nattress
Re: Archiving
on Jan 17, 2006 at 8:48:14 pm

Yes, but consumer confidence doesn't always follow any rule of logic. I had 15 zip drives die in one day. Yes, I know Iomega have better, more reliable products now, but I'm loathe that I give any more of my money to a company that let me down so much all those years ago. This might not make logical sense, but it makes emotional sense.

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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gary adcock
Re: Archiving
on Jan 17, 2006 at 11:36:16 pm

[Ron Shook] "Proprietary scare tactics aren't becoming. Either REV works or it doesn't, and I find it incomprehensible that TGV would have this much riding on something that doesn't work."

As Graeme said - it is an emotional issue.

I have used and discarded literally 100's of iomega jaz and zip disks and drive units. I actually bought 3 jaz drives just to keep with for the archive of ILM content I worked on in the late 90's.

I was referring only the truth of the Iomega REV product legacy. ( and it is obvious that I was not the only one burned)

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA


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toke lahti
Re: Archiving
on Jan 15, 2006 at 11:49:08 pm

If you would be dumping the cards at the studio, it would be easy.
You'd just have a raid5 and data tape backup done every night automatically.
No manual copying after dumping at all.

Problem is in the field, you need electricity for that raid5 box.
But usually there is electricity available and you could set up laptop and storagebox right where you use to have a film loading tent. And clapper/loader can handle copying like s/he has handled film loading before.
Copying can be done simultaneosly with shooting, loader just has to verify that it happened properly.


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David Battistella
Re: Archiving
on Jan 16, 2006 at 1:36:03 am


Great thread guys.

The thing I thought about was this concept. Lets' say you did a 40 minute interview onthe P2 cards. You actually have to erase the front half of your interview from the P2 card to make media avaiable for the rest of the interview.

I am not trying to be a fatalist but, you know, what if you finish the interview and realize that the begining didn't trnasfer properly or something. OK. so you could do the interviews in on the DV tape and upconvert those parts of the show.

I have mentioned this before, but I it would a good idea for Panasonic to "dump" this stuff on the market and make it cheap and avaiable. I know that there is a ton of R&D dollars into this technology, but to make it fly I think a pricing scheme like this would make the format irresistable.

2 gig 100.00
4 gig 200.00
8 gig 400.00


The only way to make P2 make sense is volume. Once the market is secure and people appreciate and trust the technology they will become loyal. At prices like this you would sell for times more cards and. more importantly build a bigger Panasonic customer base.

I love the flat screen computer example. The technolgy was invented by Zenith but the Japanese manufacturers made and sold them at huge losses to corner the market. Zenith decided to keep the price high and were slaughtered. When was the last time you thought of buying a Zenith Flat Panel. Over the long haul the manufacturers made money.

This is an industry that adopts formats and sticks (film, betacam, D-beta have all been around for a quarter century or more and Sony has made a lot of that money). There is something to be learned in all of this.

Put P2 in everybody's hands at a very reasonable price and people will take it over HDV and disk based stuff for sure. Panasonic wants to recoup in very short order and that is a bad move because people will buy the HVX because it is "what they know".

David

The new year is over


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David Battistella
Re: Archiving (little fix)
on Jan 16, 2006 at 1:44:13 am



small correction to the last line

people will buy the HDV or XDCAM because it is "what they know".

David



The new year is over


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Drizzt_G
Re: Archiving (little fix)
on Jan 17, 2006 at 8:29:10 am

I totally agree with you David. Panasonic should look at the P2 cards as a replacement for tapes, not a new media transport technology. I think David's suggested price list would be a realistic one. The P2 cards definitly has the potential of killing the HDV format, but not at those prices.


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James Sullivan
Re: Archiving (little fix)
on Jan 27, 2006 at 6:44:36 pm

I think one of the big selling points is not have to spend money on the $30,000 Deck for small production companies. Also there will be no TC breaks!!!! (apparently) Tape is nice however but I guess DVDs could work as well. Maybe this will bring back assistant editors for video production!!!

James


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