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HVX200: PAL or NTSC

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Andrew B.
HVX200: PAL or NTSC
on Jan 9, 2006 at 9:51:48 am

Hi,

With new Panasonic HVX200 I am going to shoot only HD format. So, in one shop they have only NTSC cameras. My questions are:

- is format consideration for SD or it is different for HD to shoot also?

- Is it big problem if I am in Europe and will buy NTSC camera?

- What is the difference if PAL HVX and NTSC HVX cameras?

any help will be appreciated.
thank you in advance,
Andrew


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Andrew B.
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
on Jan 9, 2006 at 10:23:49 am

As I heard that by aquiring with HD i can easily deliver images for PAL and NTSC (SD or HD) TV broadcast market. So, why then they call cameras as PAL or NTSC? Please help me to understand it.

thank you,
Andrew


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Graeme Nattress
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
on Jan 9, 2006 at 11:45:43 am

HD in itself doesn't make dealing with world standards easier. You still have the issue of different frame rates- 25 v 29.97. Shooting 24p can help as you can just speed that up to 25p easily, but that's no good for a music video!

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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Barry Green
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
on Jan 9, 2006 at 12:37:31 pm

European HDTV will be broadcast at 25p or 50i.

US HDTV isn't. It's broadcast at 60i, 60p, 24p, or 30p.

So the US version shoots 1080/24p and 1080/30p and 1080/60i and 720/60p, for use with US ATSC televisions.

The European version shoots 1080/25p and 1080/50i and 720/50p, for use with European/EBU televisions.

So yes, you most definitely want to get the version of the camera that works with your territory's television system.

-----------------
Get the most from your DVX camera. The DVX Book and DVX DVD are now available on ebay and at Amazon (http://www.fiftv.com/db)


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Karl
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
by
on Jan 9, 2006 at 12:41:39 pm

Andrew

I too am in PAL land but would not buy the NTSC model. The simple reason is that with the NTSC HVX the ONLY advantage using this in Europe would be shooting 1080/24p or 720/24p. So if you KNOW you're going to a film-out only then yes this is the camera for you.

However if your HD work is going to be shown on Eurpoean TV, or downsized to DVD to be shown on a PAL TV then you really need the PAL version.

Here's the differences.

HVX NTSC shoots HD in 1080/60i, 1080/24p, 1080/24pA, 1080/30p, 720p (variable frame rates).In 720 mode it also shoots I think 10 different framterates up to 60p (but not PAL 25p).

IN SD it shoots 480/60i, 480/24p, 480pA, 480/30p.

HVX PAL shoots HD in 720/25p 720/50p 1080/25p 1080/50i. 720p mode also has variable framerates, but only up to 50p (so a bit less slo-mo ability, and it does not shoot 24p).

In SD it shoots 576/25p 756/50i.

Going to HD unfortunately does not standarise the world of HD production. Films at the cinema are projected at 24p, HD broadcasts in Amercia are 30p/60i, HD in europe will be 25p/50p or 50i (when it finally happens). So as you can see the HVX you decide to use needs to be linked to a terratory.

With the PAL HVX running at 25p - this translates quite well to 24p if you ever were going to do a 35mm out for cinema projection. Shooting video at 25p and converting it for projection is a well established process and has been carried out for years. it just requires a very minor slo-down which the post-house will normally do for you.

You have to decide what the camera is primarily going to be used for, and make your decision based on that. For me, its arrogant to assume that even my best work will be shown at the cinema. So shooting my shorts/features at 1080/25 gives me some flexibility in being able to show this on existing SD PAL TV's (downsized) - it's HD ready too, and if anyone wanted a film-out it could be done from this material with a little work.

In the future when All TV's can display multiple framerates and cinema is 100% digitally projected; frame rates will be no problem. As it stands now you have to be careful what you buy.

Karl




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Andrew B.
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
on Jan 9, 2006 at 1:34:53 pm

Karl,

thank you for your reply. we are producing for europe and america and here is other question what conversion maintains better quality: PAL to NTSC or NTSC to PAL? It means if we buy NTSC HVX and then convert it for PAL it the same or better to have PAL camera and convert it to NTSC. what is better to shoot originally - PAL or NTSC?

Andrew


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Karl
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
by
on Jan 9, 2006 at 2:36:55 pm

Hi Andrew

Well there are two things to consider, the framerate and the resolution.

PAL SD is higher resolution than NTSC. Overall its a better quality signal. If you convert NTSC to PAL then you need to upres the image from 480 to 576. So in this respect PAL would be a better choice as you'd have no resoltuion loss going from PAL - NTSC (576 to 480). A higher quality signal to start with.

As for the framerate, I think PAL to NTSC looks better than NTSC to PAL (tho i could be wrong). Converting 25 to 30 just requires some frame blending to fill in the missing frames, but going 30 to 25 requires ditching 5 frames per second which I dont think looks as pleasing to the eye. I know that indie film-makers in the US used to always shoot on PAL equipment - mainly because going 30fps to 24 (for film) didnt look so good, so shooting at 25p was a better option (now of course they all use 24p). I think someone like Grahame could give a better technical explaination.

I would spend some time thinking about which country took priority. Conversion isnt something you really want to do if you can avoid it. The signal from the HVX is already compressed and you're recompressing futher. If you are getting that much work get two cameras :-). Or if you arnt bothered by motion artifacts go for the Sony Z1 (HD HDV cam) that can do both PAL and NTSC framerates in the same camera (but you'd lose a lot of functionality compared to a HVX).

It all depends on what you want to do, will you be shooting variable frame rates for slo-mo? Will you be filming projects the require hours of footage (if so the HVX might not be the best option with it's expensive storage medium). Do you want interchangable lens (the canon)? Unfortunatly there isnt a One camera does everything solution; certinaly not in this price range; so you have to decide what you'll mainly use it for and go for that. If youre main use is constant switchability between NTSC and PAL in SD, then the HVX would be the wrong choice.

Karl


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Andrew B.
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
on Jan 9, 2006 at 3:32:16 pm

[Karl] "It all depends on what you want to do, will you be shooting variable frame rates for slo-mo? Will you be filming projects the require hours of footage (if so the HVX might not be the best option with it's expensive storage medium).

HVX can not shoot pregressive HD to DV tape? As i heard it can nicely store 720p directly to tape. If so, it is quite enough for us to start with HD.

[Karl] Do you want interchangable lens (the canon)?

do not think so. it is too expensive.

[Karl] Unfortunatly there isnt a One camera does everything solution; certinaly not in this price range; so you have to decide what you'll mainly use it for and go for that. If youre main use is constant switchability between NTSC and PAL in SD, then the HVX would be the wrong choice."

We do not going to do film-out.

Mainly we want to make DVDs and digitaly project video. That is why we do not want to shoot SD and interlaced. It was enough experience with it and right now we want to step it over. So much quality and color loose with deinterlacing business. Also SD resolution is not enough to get real picture quality on DVD or digital projection. It looks bad even when we project DVCAM footage.

Andrew



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toke lahti
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
on Jan 9, 2006 at 3:59:53 pm

If you want to start in February you have to take ntsc version. Pal version might be out sometime in April - May.
With pal version you can record more horisontal resolution (1440 vs. 1280) in 1080 mode, but right now that seems a bit irrelevant when first reports show that camera's true horisontal resolving power is only a bit over 600 lines.


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Karl
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
by
on Jan 9, 2006 at 9:56:18 pm

Sorry Andrew the HVX can only shoot SD DV25 to the DV tape.

720p must be shot to either the P2 card or an external device such as the upcoming firestore or cineporter.

Also if you want to shoot DVCPRO50 (SD but twice the colour resolution as DV) this also has to be stored onto P2 or ext device.

Just to clarify, the only thing you can shoot onto mini-dv is DV SD video, everything else is P2 or firewire device.

Hope this helps

Karl


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Andrew B.
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
on Jan 9, 2006 at 10:48:43 pm

[Karl] "Sorry Andrew the HVX can only shoot SD DV25 to the DV tape."

hmm... it looks quite expansive toy... how many P2 card comming in-box with HVX and what capacity? is it available now to by separately and for what price? Is firestore or any comatible firewire HDD solution available to buy right now?

thank you Karl, Graeme, Toke and Barry for your quick response and help.
Andrew




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Gunleik Groven
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
on Jan 9, 2006 at 10:01:31 pm

[Andrew B.] "HVX can not shoot pregressive HD to DV tape? As i heard it can nicely store 720p directly to tape. If so, it is quite enough for us to start with HD."

I don't think the HVX can record anything but DV to tape. You'll need p2 cards or some HD solution to record HD.

Gunleik
(Who'd like to be wrong...)


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Andrew B.
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
on Jan 9, 2006 at 2:46:09 pm

Thank you very much, Graeme, Barry and Karl

I have to digest everything you wrote.

Meanwhile i would like to explaine the situation once again. We going to buy HVX200. Only shop we found to be able to ship the camera to us is one in America and it has only NTSC cameras. We planning to shoot only progressive HD format and our short documentaries are going to be PAL and NTSC, because afterwords we send it to Europe countries and America (same video).

So, from one point it is the same if we shoot PAL and then convert to NTSC or we shoot NTSC and then convert PAL. But... i am not sure if quality after converting from NTSC to PAL is not worth then opposit conversion.

Also, if someone knows any shop, hipping PAL HVX cameras right now, please let me know.

Andrew


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Graeme Nattress
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
on Jan 9, 2006 at 3:00:49 pm

Shoot 24p NTSC. Speed up 4% to go to PAL. Perfect looking conversion. You can do it in Cinema Tools very quickly with it's "Conform" option.

I don't think there's any quality advantage to shooting PAL, really, not in this case, and a PAL HVX is still in development I think.

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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henry kim
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
on Jul 24, 2013 at 9:26:37 pm

Hi Graeme,

By speeding up the 24p file to 4%, how does that effect syncing audio?

-Hen


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Graeme Nattress
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
on Jul 24, 2013 at 9:31:57 pm

Audio must be also sped up to retain sync. If you're using cinema tools, it will also speed up the associated audio with the video. If not, you'll need to speed up the audio separately.

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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henry kim
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
on Jul 24, 2013 at 9:49:43 pm

Graeme!

Thanks for the swift response-
I plan to sync an audio file from Asia. (Uncertain of their audio frame rate)
But I am using an NTSC P2.

Will they sound like chipmunks if sped up, or will it all resolve in the final output?


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Graeme Nattress
Re: HVX200: PAL or NTSC
on Jul 24, 2013 at 10:01:46 pm

You may be able to hear the audio difference. If you do you can re-pitch the audio (not re-time, just re-pitch) which should be doable in decent audio editing software, or you can put the whole project back to 24p at the end.

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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