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HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200

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hopperHD
HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 29, 2005 at 9:54:14 pm

Please disregard my last post. I must learn to proof read :)

What I was trying to ask was:

Question:

I'm debating between HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200. My application formats would DV as well as(HDV/HD the same?). It sounds like you can do broadcast quality video on both. Price point and availability are two other factors I also have to consider. I'm just stepping in to the business now and don't want something that will be obsolete in 3 years. And is it true that 720p has a better image quality and more flexibility than 1040i? I believe the HVR-Z1U HD is only 1040i and the HVX200 is 720p.

Thanks,
Jason



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Barry Green
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 29, 2005 at 10:11:42 pm

"broadcast quality" is a squirrely definition to pin down. Both are capable of excellent results, that's for sure. But DiscoveryHD will not accept Z1 footage, or any HDV footage AFAIK.

1080i and 720p are two different modes of HD. The Z1 only does 1080i. The HVX does all the modes supported by the ATSC high-definition broadcast standard: it does 1080/24p, 1080/30p, 1080/60i, 720/60p, 720/24p, and 720/30p.

The HVX does basically everything the Z1 does, and an awful lot of things that the Z1 doesn't. The Z1's main thing is that it records its version of high-def onto a $4 tape, and the HVX doesn't. If you need an hour's worth of recording on a $4 tape, and you're satisfied with the HDV quality and the attendant limitations that come with it (no variable frame rates, no 720p, etc), then the Z1 may make sense. But if you can work with the P2/FireStore/CinePorter workflow of the HVX, then you'll get everything the Z1 offers and a whole lot more.

-----------------
Get the most from your DVX camera. The DVX Book and DVX DVD are now available on ebay and at Amazon (http://www.fiftv.com/db)


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Frank Nolan
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 30, 2005 at 12:51:07 am

What is AFAIK? :(


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Kathlyn Lindeboom
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 30, 2005 at 1:07:31 am

[Frank Nolan] "What is AFAIK?"

As Far as I Know

Kathlyn Lindeboom
The Mistress of Mmmooooo!


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Kevin Wild
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 30, 2005 at 5:51:17 am

Not sure about that. There was a lot of talk recently on DVI that Discovery HAS approved the Canon XL H1 for broadcast. Having just received one yesterday AND having edited a bunch of Discovery programming...I would bet this is true. The H1's picture is outstanding.

Kevin


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hopperHD
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 30, 2005 at 7:06:47 am

Not sure what you're suggesting. Are you comparing the Canon XL H1 to that of the HVR-Z1U HD, or the HVX200? Out of the two, what one is closer to the Canon XL H1?

Thanks,
Jason


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Kevin Wild
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 30, 2005 at 7:17:20 am

I know people always want to talk about what is best. BUT, if you light something nicely and take care with your production, I doubt 95% of viewers could see the difference between these 3 cameras. It's more about what you're looking for and what you need. I can't go into all that, but there are TONS of posts about the differences in workflows and such.

My $.02, after seeing the Z1, is that the Canon's HDV matches the best with the Panny HVX200 due to some things they did and some great glass. BUT again...this is a percent or two. All are great cameras...don't get caught up in all these charts and tests people are putting up. They will all do the job at an exceptional level for their price point.

Kevin


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hopperHD
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 30, 2005 at 8:13:43 am

Thanks Kev!

I've researched a lot lately and there are so many posts with "just around the corner". Now it's time to make a decision :)


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gary adcock
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 30, 2005 at 1:49:33 pm

[Kevin Wild] "My $.02, after seeing the Z1, is that the Canon's HDV matches the best with the Panny HVX200 due to some things they did and some great glass. BUT again...this is a percent or two. All are great cameras...don't get caught up in all these charts and tests people are putting up. "

Anyone with the proper knowledge can make any of these cameras do what ever they need them to do, it is in the hands of a true pro that the differences really show. Canon has produced a great camera, but with out any supporting decks the camera has very limited use in a post world. Tape is no good when there is nothing to play it back in other than a camera -HDSDI out or not.

the HVX200 offers a shooter more controls,true hd capture of every single frame, higher usability do to multiple formats in HD and SD, in addition to the ability to shoot 24 fps and offspeed content. No other camera under 200K offers all of these possibilities.

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA


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Kevin Wild
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 30, 2005 at 4:46:12 pm

The SONY deck will play Canon's 1080i just fine, which is what MUCH of the work I do will be shot at. So, there are "supporting decks" for this camera. Yes, the 24 and 30F modes are currently not supported, but it won't be long, so let's not go overboard on the idea this camera has "limited use in the post world."

Not sure I agree that the HVX200 offers "more controls." Have you checked out an H1 yet? You can change just about everything you'd ever want to do...VERY, VERY flexible.

Again, I don't want to get into which is better. The quality is within a percent or two with a good shooter, in my opinion. If someone wants to go tapeless, get the HVX200. If someone needs tape, go H1.

KW


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Graeme Nattress
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 30, 2005 at 5:22:27 pm

It won't belong before 30f and 24f are supported eh? So Canon are making a deck are they? Or Sony will support it like they don't support JVC's? The lack of standardization and deck support for HDV is a nightmare. If you're a post house wanting to support all HDV formats, you need an awful lot of gear....

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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Kevin Wild
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 30, 2005 at 5:29:09 pm

Graeme, not that companies haven't done dumber things in the past, but I CAN NOT IMAGINE that Canon made this new format without any plans for deck support. I would hope that there will be a rev'd deck from SONY that supports these modes at NAB this year.

Not sure, but I sure hope something is released soon. The camera is incredible...I feel the same awe at the pictures I'm getting as when I first walked into an edit suite 15 years ago.

Kevin


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Graeme Nattress
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 31, 2005 at 10:11:19 am

Well, given that Canon sales rep that I spoke to seemed woefully ignorant of these incompatibilities, and that no deck has been announced from Canon, and I've not seen Sony announce a new deck either, and given that Canon have NEVER made a video deck (only cameras), I severely doubt there's any solution on the horizon. I'd not be holding my breath.....

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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toke lahti
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Jan 1, 2006 at 4:48:20 pm

I don't see vcr's so important anymore. Sony's hdv deck is just a camera without camera head and it costs about the same amount than the camera, so it's better idea to buy 2 cameras than one and vcr.

One difference between hdv and dvcprohd will remain and no talent can remove that: datarate.
1080i60hdv has only 0.54 bits per pixel when dvcprohd has 2.4 bits per pixel. Even if hdv's interframe compression is a bit more efficient, it also produces "movement error" artifacts when motion estimation in a GOP fails.

This leads to that some new technology narrows down the artistic choises we are used to have.
It makes me a bit angry and sad, but it seems to be that camera design engineers have never understood what creative professionals really want out of their camera. In the past when design aimed to best possible "technical quality" it rarely restricted the creative use. Nowadays when camera design aims to lowest cost and highest profits, "technical quality" is designed to be just above "acceptable level". This is good enough in optimal sircumstances, but not in any other.

In technical history point of view, hdv is a sad example of a format that is cheapest solution for consumers but adopted also by professionals. It uses tape technology used by consumer cameras for whole decade. It uses compression method that was designed over a decade ago. It uses interlaced picture which is just compression method for analog television.

For example using handheld camera with high shutter speed with lots of movement in the picture and rapid changes in the lights (= regular music video) is too much for hdv datarate. I've seen examples of this.
But of course, most of the time hdv can give "acceptable quality". It really depends what you are shooting and how.

But hey, happy new year to everybody in creativecows!
May your new year be unique!


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gary adcock
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Jan 1, 2006 at 6:18:42 pm

[toke lahti] "Even if hdv's interframe compression is a bit more efficient, it also produces "movement error""

Toke - this is not correct, all HDV uses intra-frame compression- where the compression is computed across more than one frame from as little as 6 to as many as 15 frames - this is where the "movement error" you speak of. DVCPROHD uses inter frame compression - or every frame is compressed individually without regard to the adjacent frame.




Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA


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Graeme Nattress
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Jan 1, 2006 at 7:44:39 pm

Intra = inside, Inter = between. Intercity railways go between cities.

Intra frame compression = only inside that frame, like DVCproHD

Inter Frame compression = occurs on groups of frames.

Although all Interframe compression also uses intra frame compression as well, as both the image and the motion vectors are DCT compressed in MPEG2.

Now which hang down, stalegtites or stalegmites? Stalegtites hang down as a pair of tights on the washing line hang down.

On a graph, which way is X and Y. X is across, as "x is a cross", and Y is up as the "three wise men looked up" - say "wise "as "yzzz".

Ok enough.....

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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gary adcock
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200---- a correction
on Jan 1, 2006 at 8:05:17 pm

[gary adcock] "Toke - this is not correct"

Actually Toke you were correct --- I miss spoke and got them backwards --HDV does use Inter-frame compression -- DVCPROHD uses intra-frame.



Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA


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Graeme Nattress
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200---- a correction
on Jan 1, 2006 at 8:55:32 pm

Too much "new year's cheer"?

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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Kyle S
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Jan 2, 2006 at 12:41:34 am

An ignorant sales rep, none of us have ever seen one of those before. Manufactoring a deck is just a couple of steps different from putting the tape drive in the camera. Cannon has never made a deck before becase they had no reason to. I am sure Cannon will recify whatever problems they must in a reasonable time frame.

Kyle


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gary adcock
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 30, 2005 at 10:10:34 pm

[Kevin Wild] "The SONY deck will play Canon's 1080i just fine, which is what MUCH of the work I do will be shot at. So, there are "supporting decks" for this camera. Yes, the 24 and 30F modes are currently not supported, but it won't be long, so let's not go overboard on the idea this camera has "limited use in the post world.""

This has not been my experience, I have been unable to get the 2 different Canon H1 Tapes I shot at 1080i60 to play in any deck. I have tried these tapes in 3 Sony decks without success - but they play fine in the 2 cameras I tried.

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA


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jiri vrozina
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 30, 2005 at 10:23:26 pm

Hi Gary,
will You post some test results regarding HVX 200??
jiri


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gary adcock
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 30, 2005 at 10:42:38 pm

[jiri vrozina] "will You post some test results regarding HVX 200??"

I will be posting some of my tests and results when the Cow magazine article hits the news stands later this spring.
Some of the news will be old by then. some will not be.



Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA


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Ron Shook
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 29, 2005 at 11:48:30 pm

Jason,

[hopperHD] "I'm just stepping in to the business now and don't want something that will be obsolete in 3 years."

Good Luck! This business is moving so fast that everything starts to look obsolete in 2 years. This is just my opinion and a not very popular one with those who already have HDV cameras like the HVR-Z1U, but I suspect that the HVX200 is gonna decimate HDV sales by all other manufacturers (Maybe not at first, but 6 months to a year down the line). While it's gonna be considerably more difficult and somewhat more expensive to work-flow with for everything but DV, in 2 or 3 years P2 (solid state memory) technology will start to rival tape in cost, and we'll never look back.

Ron Shook



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Michael Brennan
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 30, 2005 at 12:20:13 pm

[Ron Shook] "While it's gonna be considerably more difficult and somewhat more expensive to work-flow with for everything but DV, in 2 or 3 years P2 (solid state memory) technology will start to rival tape in cost, and we'll never look back."

What do you base your figures on Ron?


Mike Brennan


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Graeme Nattress
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 30, 2005 at 2:51:32 pm

Solid state memory is not as expensive as P2. P2 is expensive though, especially at the higher sizes. This will drop though....

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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David Saraceno
Re: HVR-Z1U HD vs. HVX200
on Dec 30, 2005 at 5:05:52 pm

The 720p footage with action/motion on the HVX200 is fabulous.

Well shot and planned footage on the Z1U is also fabulous.

As Barry says, the issue for most people is acquisition media for the Pany.

I record on $16.00 tapes with the Sony. Not standard DV, but mastering tape the minimizes drop outs for HDV.

The Panasonic requires either 4 or 8 Gb P2 cards that are very expensive. Shooting DVCProHD on these tapes runs about 4 minutes per 4 Gbs. Or you can record directly to an external hard drive equipped to this - three possibilites are all about $2,000.00.

Or you can record live directly to FCP using laptop.

David S.


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