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Feedback on WorkFlow solution

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Carlos
Feedback on WorkFlow solution
on Dec 10, 2005 at 12:29:40 am

I came out with the following workflow with the intent on finishing with a Digibeta master. If anyone better solutions, would love to heard them.

WorkFlow
1.Shoot with HVX at variable frame rates and 24p
2.Transfers footage from P2 card to Laptop/PC through firewire in DVC Pro codec
3.in FCP, do the frame rate conversion with plug in
4.Edit offline with DVPro codec
5.Output final cut through firewire to tape to 1200A deck
6.Downconvert tape from 1200A deck to PC (Kona or Decklink)in to uncompressed 10 bit SDI out
7.Color correct uncompressed SDI 10 bit with Final Touch
8.Output to Digibeta

Things I don't have clear yet:
1. How will the Plug in behave with variable frame rates coming from the P2 card? with the Varicam we are forced to either: a) gives 5 seconds heads & tails for each shot that has variable frame rates b) shoot separate tapes for each frame rate change c) use the Panasonic Frame Rate Converter and not worry about mixing frame rates.

2. With DVPro 50/25 does the frame rate conversion workswith the FCP plug in?

3. Can you have three formats mixed in the same P2 card?

4. For HD Color Correction, wouldn't make sense to work uncompressed HD and finish with a D5 or HDSR master? If so,wouldn't make sense to rent a facility that can handle this amount of information?. I just don't like working with codecs for color corrections.

Waiting fot your thoughts...
Carlos



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Barry Green
Re: Feedback on WorkFlow solution
on Dec 10, 2005 at 8:37:17 am

It's a lot simpler than what you've outlined. I don't use FCP so someone should step in and correct if I get this wrong but:

1) Shoot with HVX in 24PN mode on the card
2) Plug the card into your laptop (forget about having to firewire in the footage)
3) Ingest the footage to your hard disk (which will automatically convert it to Quicktime)
4) Edit ONLINE (not offline) in the DVCPRO-HD codec, full-screen, full-res, full-motion realtime
5) Forget the 1200A deck, no need for that at all, and it's about $25,000 if you don't have one already. You should be able to render directly to an uncompressed 10-bit final file, no? If not, just output the file as DVCPRO-HD to a FAT32 firewire hard disk, and then plug that into your PC and copy the file over.
6) Edit/correct/output as normal.

[Carlos] "1. How will the Plug in behave with variable frame rates coming from the P2 card? with the Varicam we are forced to either: a) gives 5 seconds heads & tails for each shot that has variable frame rates b) shoot separate tapes for each frame rate change c) use the Panasonic Frame Rate Converter and not worry about mixing frame rates."
You don't have to even worry about it. When you shoot in the 24PN mode, FCP automatically understands the footage exactly like you'd want it to. No additional steps necessary, just import the footage and it'll work the way you want.


[Carlos] "3. Can you have three formats mixed in the same P2 card?"
Absolutely. The card is just like a hard disk, so it can have any formats on it. You can mix DV, DVCPRO25, DV50, 720p, 1080p, 1080i, anything and everything.


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Get the most from your DVX camera. The DVX Book and DVX DVD are now available at http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/dvxbook/ and at Amazon (http://www.fiftv.com/db)


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Brian Cutts
Re: Feedback on WorkFlow solution
on Dec 10, 2005 at 10:51:43 am

I'm not sure that you can mix the formats on a P2 card. I was testing out a pre-release AG-HVX200 and had problems trying to record HD media on cards already containing SD media.



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Jan Crittenden Livingston
Re: Feedback on WorkFlow solution
on Dec 10, 2005 at 3:30:54 pm

[Brian Cutts] "I'm not sure that you can mix the formats on a P2 card. I was testing out a pre-release AG-HVX200 and had problems trying to record HD media on cards already containing SD media."

I'll try that, but I know that I have mixed HD formats, never tried the SD & HD. But I am going on a short vacation, but will have the Baby with me and can play a bit.

Best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems



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Barry Green
Re: Feedback on WorkFlow solution
on Dec 10, 2005 at 10:33:04 pm

[Brian Cutts] "I'm not sure that you can mix the formats on a P2 card"

I'll guarantee you it works. I've shot a clip in every format the camera shoots, on the same card, just to try it out. Everything from 1080/60i down to DV 24p, and everything inbetween.


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Get the most from your DVX camera. The DVX Book and DVX DVD are now available at http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/dvxbook/ and at Amazon (http://www.fiftv.com/db)


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Scott Pictures
Re: Feedback on WorkFlow solution
on Dec 11, 2005 at 5:35:13 pm

What about archiving. I was thinking if I used the 4GB P2 card I could burn the contents to a data DVD in case of hard drive failure, ect. I can't afford the $21,000 Deck otherwise I would just archive the P2 card to tape.



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Barry Green
Re: Feedback on WorkFlow solution
on Dec 12, 2005 at 9:40:27 am

[Scott Pictures] "What about archiving. I was thinking if I used the 4GB P2 card I could burn the contents to a data DVD in case of hard drive failure, ect.

A DVD makes a very cheap archive for a 4gb card, and preserves all the metadata.

[Scott Pictures] I can't afford the $21,000 Deck otherwise I would just archive the P2 card to tape."
You wouldn't want to do that anyway. The $21,000 deck is probably the worst way to archive. You don't want to go archiving to video tape... if you want to archive to tape, instead archive to DATA tape. It's far less expensive, way faster, and signficantly better.

If you archive to video tape, you lose all the metadata, and you turn all your individual video files on disk back into clips on tape, which would then need to be re-digitized. Forget that, instead use a DLT or SAIT or LTO data tape drive. It'll archive all the metadata and keep the clip-based nature of the project, so no redigitizing necessary! Quantum has a new MXF-aware drive that knows all about MXF file wrappers, can output the files at 3x real time (288 megabits per second), and can restore individual files or even individual clips within files (i.e., you have a minute-long clip, but only want the middle 10 seconds? It can go out and find those 10 seconds, unwrap the stored MXF, extract the 10 seconds, and re-wrap it in an MXF file for direct import into your NLE.) The Quantum drive isn't cheap, it's $10,000, but it's still less than half the cost of the videotape deck, three times faster, and the per-gig cost is much less too: $100 for 300gb, vs. $100 for about 90gb with videotape.

Data tape is the way to go, if you want tape. Blu-ray burners will be on the market soon, for around $1000 you should be able to back up 50gb of data on a dual-layer disc sometime around March or April, right? Don't remember exactly...


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Get the most from your DVX camera. The DVX Book and DVX DVD are now available at http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/dvxbook/ and at Amazon (http://www.fiftv.com/db)


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Ron Shook
Re: Feedback on WorkFlow solution
on Dec 12, 2005 at 9:16:55 pm

Barry,

[Barry Green] "use a DLT or SAIT or LTO data tape drive."

Nice logical post. The Quantum MXF capability sounds great, but probably not a lotta folks are gonna spend $10k to back up the files of a $6k camera. I'm gonna try and mine your mind rather than doing my own research for the time being and ask you about the relative merits and demerits of the 3 data tape formats above and the approximate cost of comparable units and their media. No problem, if it's too much hassle, but a fella can only try. (g)

Ron Shook



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Barry Green
Re: Feedback on WorkFlow solution
on Dec 13, 2005 at 4:59:23 am

There are many who know their merits far better than I do. All I'm saying is, data tape is the proper way to go, if one wants to back up on tape. Video tape is the worst way to back up because it's the slowest, most labor-intensive, and most expensive of the tape options.

-----------------
Get the most from your DVX camera. The DVX Book and DVX DVD are now available at http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/dvxbook/ and at Amazon (http://www.fiftv.com/db)


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toke lahti
Re: Feedback on WorkFlow solution
on Dec 10, 2005 at 8:01:30 pm

About workflow:
If you recycle you project through tape, you will loose all cutpoints and cc'ing will take a lot more time when you have to find all the cuts again.
Why don't you just edit with dvcpro codec (and have realtime preview) and then change the sequence's codec to 10-bit kona/decklink and cc that and then render and output through sdi?


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