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RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact

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kale collins
RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 5, 2018 at 11:05:53 pm

Hello again, seeking help on the same project.
Say I have two objects both have rigid body tag delayed to a later keyframe and when impact occurs with a Water Body (fill emitter)
The crown Daemon collision will not render, as well as the initial state refuses to be made for the fluid.
I'm willing to share my file if necessary.
But however will appreciate all feedback- if any!
Cheers :)

~{^-^}~


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kale collins
Re: RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 5, 2018 at 11:28:43 pm

Here is my .zip of my personal project
12431_smh0002.c4d.zip.zip

~{^-^}~


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Jim Scott
Re: RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 6, 2018 at 7:24:30 pm

Hi Kale,

I've been looking at your file and in order to get any kind of reasonable simulation times I reduced the fluid resolution to .1 and shrunk the fluid containers just to reduce the particle and mesh polygon counts.

One thing I noticed was that if you want your crown to appear when the objects hit the fluid you need to change the Creation Time to around 3.5 (the objects hit at around 105 frames, which would be 3.5 seconds).

I notice a lot of bugginess with Realflow, including having the crown just stop working and having to delete and recreate it, which sounds like one of the issues you were having as well. The bugginess may also be a factor in why your simulation wasn't working right, especially with the high number of particles and polygons you were working with. I would suggest lowering the resolution of the fluid until you get the simulation working the way you like, and then increasing it for the final rendering.

I'll keep playing with it and see if I can offer any better advice, but as I said before I only very occasionally use this plugin and so am relearning it each time I do.



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Jim Scott
Re: RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 6, 2018 at 8:15:18 pm

Just to clarify:

It seems from your post that you might be assuming that the crown splash is triggered by the falling objects. The crown splash is triggered by its Creation Time setting - the point in time, measured in seconds - not by a collision.



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Jim Scott
Re: RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 7, 2018 at 12:29:47 am

After playing with the simulation with the fluid resolution at .1 to speed things up I rendered out a test with the following steps:

1) Set render resolution to 640 x 320 (crown Creation Time set to 3.5)
2) Set fluid resolution to .5 and ran the simulation to around 45 frames to let the fluids settle
3) Created initial state
4) Cached simulation and mesh
5) rendered movie file

Note: Your textures will look different as I didn't have access to several of the jpg texture files. Project time was increased to 230 frames to allow crown splash to complete.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hy18msvo7cgro3p/SMH_movie.mov?dl=0



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kale collins
Re: RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 7, 2018 at 2:01:54 am

Wow brilliant! I'm bummed I'm just seeing this. but excited to give this a shot. I will update with my results:)

~{^-^}~


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Jim Scott
Re: RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 7, 2018 at 2:35:11 am
Last Edited By Jim Scott on Jun 7, 2018 at 2:39:37 am

Some issues that I ran into (which I chalk up to bugginess of the plugin and inexperience on my part) were sometimes needing to delete and recreate the mesher object (may need to click on Build Mesh), and occasionally doing the same with the Crown daemon.

Just to recap: Work at a fluid resolution of .1 until you get the crown set-up and the creation time to your liking, and then before caching the simulation and meshes for rendering set it back to .5 (or whatever you desire). Unless you want the fluid to be initially splashing around, which results from it being released from its fill object, run the simulation until it settles down, stop the playback at that point and create an initial state. Then cache the simulation and meshes before rendering.

Good luck and have fun.

Edit: Also, to reduce the particle and polygon counts decrease the sizes of the container and fill objects so that the sides are just outside of the field of view.



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Steve Bentley
Re: RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 7, 2018 at 3:18:12 am

So I take it Jim, that you are using the RF plug in within C4d and you can do your sims within C4d correct? In that case, I've been talking out of my hat. We use RF, and I assumed the OP was too, using RF as a standalone program. (we do it this way so we can also use RF with houdini etc as well).

If the c4d sim plugin works with dynamics that might be a good reason to use the plug in within C4D. What we normally have to do is bring a stunt object into standalone RF and let it bump into the fluid there in order to sim the reacting mesh before we import the final mesh (collisions and all) into C4d.
On the downside, I don't think some of the sheeting algorithms are available in the plug in version.



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Jim Scott
Re: RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 7, 2018 at 5:33:32 am

Hi Steve,

That's right, Kale and I are using the RF plugin. I only play with it occasionally so I'm not well versed in it, but from what little comparison I've done the standalone version has several advantages including being able to float objects, something the plugin cannot do. The plugin does have basic dynamics in order to designate collision objects to direct the flow, contain the fluid, etc. I think it's advantage is that it's integrated into C4D so there's no going back and forth, which is what it sounds like you were referring to. It also seems to be oriented towards motion graphics applications, fluids flying around fruit... that kind of thing, rather than the more realistic stuff that the standalone seems to cater to. And the standalone can work with lots of different programs, including Houdini as you mentioned, which is way above my knowledge level and capabilities.

From your posts I can tell that your experience and work is multiple levels above mine, as I am just a hobbyist who simply tries to help out others here when I can, hopefully passing on what little tidbits I've learned over the years of fooling around with C4D. And I try to leave the tougher questions to the experts like yourself.



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Steve Bentley
Re: RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 7, 2018 at 5:59:33 am

Hey Jim,
You're selling yourself short. You're always coming up with great solutions.
I'll have to give the plugin a go. The going back and forth in and out of C4d and RF can get tedious and time consuming. We've done a bunch of fruit but we're usually throwing coke bottles through sheets of liquid.

I'm also curious how fast the sim processes with the plug in or what the upper limit is of particles. With C4D already clogging the ram I'm surprised it can do the job. I've actually burned out a few machines running sims for days in the standalone app.



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Jim Scott
Re: RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 7, 2018 at 5:04:23 pm

Thanks Steve,

Definitely give the plugin a try. I see they now have a version for Maya if that's something that you use as well. The fact that fluid simulations are so taxing on a machine is probably the biggest reason I don't play around with it much. I've got a decent but older Mac Pro, but as you know fluid sims need major horse power, and/or a render farm.

Take care.



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Steve Bentley
Re: RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 7, 2018 at 10:11:47 pm

Its the sims that kill us. We've tried splitting them up on the farm but we get differing results between "identical" machines. About 4 or 5 years ago RF finally got multi threaded so that was a godsend but now of course we're taking advantage with stupid amounts of droplets , but at least we can now read by the light of each machine's 24 cores glowing white hot.
I wish Nvidia would start building computers instead of just video cards. If I could push the sims into a video card they would scream! I never thought we could get to a point where the render would be the quickest part.



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Jim Scott
Re: RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 8, 2018 at 1:46:34 am

[Steve Bentley] "I wish Nvidia would start building computers instead of just video cards. If I could push the sims into a video card they would scream! I never thought we could get to a point where the render would be the quickest part."

Hey, thanks for reminding me...

Something which I tend to forget about is that the Realflow C4D plugin has an option in its solver settings to "Use GPU," though the manual does come with this caveat: "RealFlow’s Dyverso solver is highly optimized for CPU multi-core and many-core processors. Some GPUs, on the other hand, do not have enough computational power to outperform a 8 or 12 core processor - which is common hardware today. For this reason a GPU-based simulation can be slower than a pure CPU-based simulation."

One of these days I'll try to remember to run a test to see if my GPU (GTX 980 Ti) gives any improvement. Apparently only the fluid solver is GPU-accelerated (and not fluid - object collisions) so I'll try to find a project where I can see a difference with and without using the GPU.

By the way, Steve, if you're able and willing to divulge it, what's the name of your company? I'd love to watch for your work just so I can say, "I know that guy." ;)



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kale collins
Re: RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 8, 2018 at 5:14:20 am

Update: my file crashed, not surprisingly. Luckily I had many saved incrementals however I do notice that whenever my file crashes, the affiliated, or previous incrementals are slightly corrupted. And now unable to perform certain tasks- as simple as creating an initial state. Also the color vividly is more glitchy.
What systems are the best for working with these simulations?

~{^-^}~


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kale collins
Re: RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 8, 2018 at 3:56:35 am

Hey all~ I appreciate the feedback so much. It's been a great help. When both of you noted the "bugginess" in RF-it was good to know I wasn't the only one.. also you all should know I am working with the most recent crack I discovered of the RF plug-in. (So that may contribute to the the lagginess.. and I have wondered if the legit one would make an evident difference.)

I did follow the steps you tested Jim, and for the most part my computer seemed to bare with me//Also I"m working on a 2010 Macbook pro, however updated it is still very very laggy. So I was intrigued to hear that you also said the simulation was slow- had no idea polygyons could play a role in that, does it really make a big difference?
Changed the res to .1 a suggested, in order to play the sim realistically and that worked well- still laggy though for my laptop.
Then created the initial state at around 45 frames
cached simulation (takes at least an hour) and then cache mesh (about an hour). -- I wonder if this timing is because of the amount of polygons/ I hadn't shrunk the cube/container yet- partially because when I try to change the size of the cube the mesh still stays the same... maybe I should cache the mesh to see if the container will shrink, the timing just takes forever.
That would also make sense because when I render the animation my water fluid within the container is not settled yet.
And Also that the crown is not in tact.....maybe another glitch of me needing to recreate it.
As I am typing this it seems to be making more sense of what I need to do.
Thanks so much!

~{^-^}~


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Steve Bentley
Re: RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 8, 2018 at 5:49:10 am

First the caveat. I'm using the standalone RF (with some custom stuff) so my suggestions or naming conventions might not translate to the plug in.
Processing the simulation can take a long time as each particle has to figure out where it is based on what all the other particles and forces are doing to it AND figure out how it connects (literally) to all the particles around it and which ones those are and which ones it wants to make geometry with. Its a huge amount of processing and on meshes like we generate can take days to work out.
Once the mesh is figured out ,its just geometry rendering after that.

I'm wondering if you couldn't play with a much lower concentration of particles to get the process working (whats going to react correctly with dynamics and the fluid friction settings etc) and then and only then increase the number of particles emitted to get your final look.

And with that in mind, I wondered about two meshes. One that is made from a lower number of emitted particles that will sim quickly and will be of a lower poly count as a mesh, and then use that mesh for the dynamics interactions.
Then process another mesh, made from a goodly amount of particles that will make it look like liquid and not lumpy porridge. Use this mesh purely for the render. Don't plug this one into the dynamics engine. They won't be identical but might be close enough for the illusion.

I'm not sure if it helps but there is also a script here: https://helloluxx.com/product/impact-deformer-for-cinema-4d/
Its not part of RF but it might create some interactions you can use to help the effect.

One the problems with all fluid simulations is that (for some reason) the particles have too much energy. So when you pour them in a glass for instance, they will shoot up the far wall and exit the glass. Real life doesn't work that way unless you are pouring from 3 feet away. So you have to ride the friction levels or put attractor/damper fields in the simulation to suck the energy out of the moving particles at just the right time. It can also take a long time for them to settle (in fact they rarely do) so you have to ride the "death" settings to get them to stop. Usually we'll subsitute in another wave based solid model just as the particles are settling so you don't get jittery particles jumping or leaking out of your glass.

As for the program crashing, its possible the particles are making a mesh that is not well formed. When we bring a mesh in from RF often it has to be optimized because there are points that never fully realize into "blobs". There are always many more particles emmited than resulting blobs - you need a cluster of particles to make a blob, a single particle will rarely show up as a droplet. (depending on settings). And as particles part, that droplet can be torn apart, sometimes with geometry inside out or not closed or with vertexes in exactly the same spot. When you run the dynamics engine in C4d it may encounter reversed faces or even unclosed polys in the mesh and that may result in divide by zero errors. By simplifying the RF mesh that is used in the dynamics tests, that may reduce the number of bad polys encountered as it interacts with the earrings.
It might also be that the earrings are not well formed. Run an optimize on the points and faces of those as well just in case and check that all the normals are facing the right way and that they have no holes. Or use a stand in for the earrings (again a simpler model) in the dynamics processing. Nothing says that the actual objects that create the pretty renders have to be the objects that crash into each other; those just become trigger objects.



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Jim Scott
Re: RealFlow: Mesh/Fluid wont create Initial state. Crown Daemon not rendering on impact
on Jun 8, 2018 at 4:13:31 pm

Kale,

Once you have cached the simulation and mesh, if "Use Cache" is enabled any changes you make (fluid resolution, cube/container sizes, crown, etc.) will have no effect because the program is using the cached simulation and meshes for playback and not looking at those changes. You will need to disable "Use Cache," make your changes, and recache everything.

To clarify the necessary steps: To speed up the initial experimentation stages, use a low fluid resolution and disable the mesh so only the fluid simulation is running and all you see is particles. This includes setting up an initial state. When you're happy with the simulation disable "Use Initial State," increase the fluid resolution to your desired setting, and then play the simulation again to the point where the fluid has settled and create a new initial state. Since the particle interactions will depend on the fluid resolution, more particles will result in more interactions and it will probably take longer to settle down. Run the simulation again (still no mesh) and check that you're still happy with the crown. Once you're happy with the whole fluid simulation, enable the mesh (with your desired settings) and cache everything. Theoretically this last step is not necessary as the rendering process should run through all the math before rendering each frame, but I've found that sometimes when I skip the caching it screws up the rendering. To be safe, cache everything and then render. The rendering will be faster because all of the caching is already done.

When playing around with your original project I found that I had to delete the whole RF Scene and recreate it in order to get the project to work. Either something gets lost in the upload, or chalk it up to a bug, but when I just ran it from its original state there were no particles being created.

Lastly, don't forget to use Realflow's "Help" button at the bottom of their settings in order to get to the online manual.

Good luck.



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