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How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?

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Renz J. Cabusao
How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 6, 2018 at 9:22:39 pm

Hello there! I hope someone sees this and helps me out with this thing. So I have a bunch of cloners set up. Each of those cloners has a different number on it via the multishader and the random effector being set to color mode 'on'. I also have it randomly switching numbers throughout the timeline by making the mode set to noise. HOWEVER, I also want it to have random transparency (all the clones either gradually appearing or disappearing). The only way i can think of in regards to that, is by using a random effector in conjunction with a color shader placed in the transparency channel. However this is where the problem occurs. Any one of the two random effectors will affect both channels. Both the Multishader in the color channel, and the Color Shader in the transparency channel. I want to be able to control the animation for the texture/ number shade and have control over the random transparency change for those cloners. If I can get this to work, I can animate it to where the randomness in transparency is fast or slow while maintaining the same animation for the multishader/texture changes in place and vice versa. Please! If anyone can shed some light as to how I can get this done, that would be absolutely brilliant!!!!


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Steve Bentley
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 7, 2018 at 7:50:35 am

Could you use the shader effector (joined to the main cloner along side your random effector with the multishader) to get a noise material from another object and apply that as a transparency map or visibility map for all your clones?
The other way is to use the mograph node in expresso and control the visibility or transparency of each clone from there.

I'm not able to try either of these at the moment but will when I get a chance.



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Renz J. Cabusao
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 9, 2018 at 3:42:11 am

Whoah! I’m super interested in that second method you mentioned regarding the mograph expresso thing. Think you can help me out in terms of what nodes I have to set up a and connect within an xpresso tag? I can’t thank you enough for responding to my dilemma, I was scared no one would help me haha


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Renz J. Cabusao
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 9, 2018 at 11:16:37 pm

Whoah! I’m super interested in that second method you mentioned regarding the mograph expresso thing. Think you can help me out in terms of what nodes I have to set up a and connect within an xpresso tag? I can’t thank you enough for responding to my dilemma, I was scared no one would help me haha


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Renz J. Cabusao
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 11, 2018 at 7:53:05 pm

hello?


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Steve Bentley
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 12, 2018 at 12:17:02 am

So like this? - see file.
You will have to add your own images into the mograph shader inside the material.
Change the noise pattern to suit - I have upped the contrast in the noise of the shader effector to really show the cubes going transparent over time but you probably don't want that

12340_mographshaderwithtrani.c4d.zip



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Renz J. Cabusao
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 12, 2018 at 1:00:05 am

The part in terms of how the shader mimicks the random transparency is awesome! But how would i go about making the textures I put in the multishader randomly change throughout the clones without effecting the transparency you have set up in the file? Other than that, the way the shader effects the transparency is perfect! 😃


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Renz J. Cabusao
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 12, 2018 at 1:05:24 am

Actually! Here's a file i have with just the shader i pasted from the file you sent, do you think you can figure out how to make it work on this? The only issue i have with using the shader is if you hit the play button, the shader's noise animation bugs out and starts to go super fast, but once it stops moving, It's speed becomes the speed i want it to go at
12341_particlesv10study.c4d.zip


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Steve Bentley
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 12, 2018 at 2:01:40 am

Without getting into multishaders and clones etc can you describe what this should look like? What are trying to make?



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Steve Bentley
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 12, 2018 at 2:26:34 am

I think the issue is the tracer not the cloner or the shader. So lets find out what the effect is or the look is your are trying to acheive because there is probably a better way to do this.



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Renz J. Cabusao
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 12, 2018 at 2:34:34 am

Sure thing!! So imagine that cube you saw with those 4 pieces being traced from it. Now I have a collection of different types of textures. I want all of those 4 to not only use different textures but to alternate/randomize throughout the timeline. The only way i can see it doing that is through the multishader mixed with the random effector. (Keep in mind I might up the amount of points it traces on another object other than just the four points in that file i sent ya) next, i want there to be smooth randomized visibility. In this case the only method i know of is the shader effector you proposed or a random effector mixed with a color shader in the transparency channel or alpha channel. Hope this clears a bunch of stuff up man, I can't thank you enough for engaging in helping me ☺


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Steve Bentley
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 12, 2018 at 3:25:44 am

So you've got the spline wrap putting a 6 poly cube around the traced paths of the points on the other cube. That is creating what I would call broken geometry because there aren't enough facets to really wrap -is that intentional?
With only four tracers (or even 8 or 20) this might be better to animate each object by hand (think how much time you have spent already).
Then you can just keyframe the different textures on each object. You can use the shader effector without a cloner.
I know that's not so procedural but you always have to take stock of whether its going to be easier to just do it or let the computer do it for you, given that you can't always get the computer to that last stage of finesse like you could with doing it by hand.

I guess I'm not clear what the tracers are for. The object swept along the trace line will change shape so with the type of texture you are using it will change shape too - is that the goal? I'm sure you have a reason for attacking this way but the fracture, the tracer and the spline wrap seem unneeded and even harmful. What am I missing?
Do you have a picture or a sketch of what this should look like?
I ask that because I think there is a better way and if I could see the look even on a napkin I might be able to suggest it.



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Renz J. Cabusao
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 12, 2018 at 12:19:36 pm

Yea man for sure, I'll try to explain it more clearly. So as for the Spline Wrap, I need the feature it has to twist, in this case it's just call rotation in the attributes of the Spline Wrap, I have another file where I have stuff set up that isn't in the file i sent such as an xpresso i have set up for the Banking value to increase as it goes through the timeline. The tracer is something I need as I plan to use this on a Character I'm going to be animating a lot. I believe i put the fracture object there to make a random effector that isn't there anymore to effect each of the points being traced, so that's what I'm trying to achieve, Here's an example of something i did regarding it following an animated character. -



In this video, the collection of textures I was talking about is a different pattern of lightning textures, you can also see how it rotates throughout the animation by itself via the rotation setting in the spline wrap object and the automated banking via xpresso, I hope these sheds some light as to what I'm trying to achieve. I just need a way to have those traced parts like in the video to randomly appear and disappear


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Steve Bentley
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 12, 2018 at 10:36:19 pm

Ok lets get the basics right first. Is this the type of thing you are trying to do? Note I have subdivided the cube that is deformed by the spline wrap - this was missing from your file. With out this there isn't enough geometry to bank or rotate the wrap and you end up with flashing overlapping polygons.
Also, as an option, turn off the spline wrap in this file and turn on the sweep. You may find this easier to work with.

12346_wrapandtracer.c4d.zip



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Steve Bentley
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 12, 2018 at 10:40:21 pm

Here are two spline wraps so you can see the problem - one has the subdivided cube and one doesn't.
The geomtry of the undivided cube is not allowed because you have non planar polygons. It will render but it will shred textures.

12347_twosplinewraps.c4d.zip



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Renz J. Cabusao
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 13, 2018 at 1:42:07 am

Ah, yea i understand what you mean, I already have a working version of the rotation with the spline wraps and such, I was just explaining what I had going on in the video i did, my real problem is the random texture with random transparency haha, I apologize for any confusion


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Renz J. Cabusao
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 13, 2018 at 1:45:42 am

In general, I have all the features I've listed successfully existing in my own project files except for those two features = Random Texture w/ Random Visibility/Transparency


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Steve Bentley
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 13, 2018 at 9:06:26 am

Can you upload the actual project? If we've solved all those things I'm not sure what's still not working.



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Renz J. Cabusao
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 13, 2018 at 12:52:37 pm

Sure! I'll send a copy with the features it has so far when I return later today


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Renz J. Cabusao
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 13, 2018 at 7:15:30 pm

Hey Steve! I've put a null in the scene file with an annotation tag I'd love for you to read. Thanks again! Here's a project file with my features I have

12349_renzsfile.c4d.zip


Just in case something goes wrong with the annotation, here is what it says - "Hi Steve! So this is pretty much a version of my setup without my fancy character
and custom textures, I just replaced the textures in the multishader to
different colors for this file.
Now my problem is this --
I know how to make them randomize in color as you can see now if you
play it. I know how to make them randomize in transparency if i was to
use a color shader in the transparency or alpha channel. However, I do not
know how to make them work seperately. There would be moments where I
want to control the speed of how frequent it randomizes from one color to
another, and moments where I would want the speed of the random transparency
to differ. An example is the changing of textures going one speed, but the
speed for random transparency/visibility going another. Maybe the change
of transparency can be slow, but the change of textures can be fast, or vice
versa. Basically, I do not want a random effector i use to effector both channels
if i did have them both. I need a way to seperate them in a way. I cant
thank you enough for trying to help me. I hope we can find a way. Im
Super desperate and this is something I'm gonna use ALOT for future animations
regarding my superhero animated character."


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Steve Bentley
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 13, 2018 at 10:20:45 pm

I can take a look in an hour or so. In the meantime, I would switch to the Shader effector - it can do everything the Random can do but with more flexibility. (in fact since the shader effector came along the random effector is redundant).
Second, you can use multiple shader effectors on the same cloner to get at different attributes. Changing the order in the list of effectors in the cloner determines which one works "first" or is "on top" and you can increase or decrease the intensity of the effectors there as well so you can blend them.



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Renz J. Cabusao
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 14, 2018 at 1:04:57 am

Yea i really like the flexibility the shader effector provides, but I’m afraid I’ll come across that problem where it will start to spazz out if I make the character/cube object move like how it did before, however I will try it as soon as I get my hands on my desktop, when you get the chance to check out the file I sent ya ya, please have a look through what I have going’s on to get it to how it is currently, I also didn’t know about the priority order thing you mentioned regarding the order of effectors in a effectors tab, that’s neat!


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Steve Bentley
Re: How to make one random effector ONLY effect a multishader in my color channel, while another random effector ONLY effects the color shader in my transparency channel?
on Apr 14, 2018 at 9:17:57 am

I think I see where you are going now. The issue is going to be changing the texture images over time.

The simplest way, is to do what we've got working already (take the texture from my file I sent and bring that into your project - the one you had in the last project didn't have the Mograph color shader in the alpha channel so your random effector wasn't doing anything - the noise needs to move on the random effector so that the alpha changes over time).
But instead of images in the mograph multishader use movies of the images changing - that way you can get the transition effect you are looking for as the images change. A different movie for each texture slot or use the animation features in the texture tag to shift the animation - map the animation to a different set of keyframes for each of the mograph mutlishaders channels.

If you are OK having the images pop when they change then you could use the variation shader (C4dR17 and up I believe). Load the images (not movies) into the variation shader in the color channel just like you do with the Multishader (Add from folder) and then animate the probability setting for each of your images loaded. (one keyframe at the beginning and one at the end of the entire animation). This will cause the images to change over time (among all you have loaded). but they will change instantly or pop.
Keep the alpha of this material set to the mograph color shader just like we've been doing and that will look after your random transparency (or you could use the variation shader on the alpha channel and just do a grad from back to white instead of images and animate the grad or the random color slot)

There's one other way - when you select the texture tag on an object, you can keyframe that material in the attributes manager. With the original material listed in the Material slot of the attributes of a texture tag, hit the keyframe button, go to another keyframe and drop a new material in that slot, hit the keyframe button again. The textures will dissolve from one to the other between those keyframes.
Now that you know how to do that, open each of the textures in the multishader - twirl down the black triangle next to the Texture 1 (2,3,4 etc) and keyframe the file slot - then move to another keyframe and get another file from your drive and keyframe that, Repeat as necessary. Unlike the texture tag on an object that's keyframed, these will pop as they change over time.

Because the length of the object that is spline-wrapped will change over time the textures are going to stretch. Because you are spinning the spline you will see the textures edge-on sometimes - this may or may not show due to your spiral. I'm not sure why this is needed. You could have the swept objects along the traces always face camera. Remember much of the new tech in C4D is just old tech in a new wrapper - tracers and objects are just paths swept along a spline. Mograph is just a wrapper on what we could always do in expresso. So many of the old techniques apply to the new features.

Finally you might want to tap Adam Trachtenberg and Brian Jones in this forum as they have done a bunch in this area as well. The issue is the changing textures over time - at least I think that's what you are after.

I thought perhaps we could have two shader effectors on the cloner- one generating a black and white noise and one generating a color noise - then we could have the transparency be affected by the B&W noise and the image chosen driven by the hue of the other noise. I haven't been able to make that work yet.

There's another way altogether that might be more organic. Have your points emit a few TP particles every 10 frames or so, short lifespans and with no velocity so they are just left in the characters wake. Then randomly, you could join those particles with a spline - like the plexus effect and sweep an object along those connect lines - You might even be able to do proper lightning if you made a connection algorithm that used the emission order or particle ID so you could branch the connecting lines.



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