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Bob Zelin
yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 12, 2018 at 11:39:40 pm

hey - wait - it's about OUR industry !

from the mainstream press - Martina McBride and her husband are being sued by an unpaid intern for 1 Million dollars, for having to do "menial labor" -

"According to TMZ, which obtained the lawsuit, "the McBrides hired unpaid interns and assigned them menial tasks like cleaning bathrooms, setting up and tearing down equipment and delivering food."


WAIT - isn't this what EVERY PERSON on this forum had to do when they got started (well, not clean bathrooms) but setting up and tearing down equipment, and delivering food (or at least get coffee) - wait - does this mean 40 years later, I can sue for a million dollars ? And does this mean that EVERY COMPANY on Creative Cow is about to get sued for 1 million dollars, because you all had interns, and all had them "setup and tear town equipment" as their internship. Well - ok - maybe if I had to clean a bathroom, I would sue for a million dollars (my wife wants to sue me for making her do it).

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Andrew Kimery
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 13, 2018 at 5:26:52 pm

The McBride's aren't being sued by former interns. They are being sued by a former employee that claims his termination was retaliatory because he reported the McBride's illegally run internship program to the Department of Labor.

Anyway, don't we have endless threads complaining that people working for low ball offers are doing themselves a grave disservice, while also poisoning the well for the rest of us, yet here you are *defending* low-ball, grinder employers that are violating labor law? Just because you got screwed at one point you think everyone should get screwed as a matter of course? The Stockholm Syndrome is strong in this one...


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Todd Terry
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 13, 2018 at 5:54:19 pm

It's probably different because we're very small shop, but we've always taken a slightly different view of interns...

Firstly, we rarely place interns, unless we have something that needs doing and can find someone with legitimate talent and value to come in. Otherwise interns are just too much of a monkey wrench thrown into things.

I would love to be more helpful to up-and-comers, but we just can't accommodate everyone who calls and wants to "just hang out and watch you guys work." I have to take the somewhat cold attitude of "We're not a school, sorry. "

So, we always only place fairly talented young people as interns. And more importantly, I think, we have always paid them. We've never allowed anyone to work for free, ever.

A zillion years ago when the dinosaurs roamed, I started my own career as a free intern...and I remember what that's like, and how even just a few bucks to say "Thank you for your hard work" would have made such a huge impact to me, and would have been a pittance for my employer.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Mark Suszko
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 14, 2018 at 2:40:51 pm

I think there's more people that are in sympathy with Bob than not, it's just a matter of degree. I think we basically all would agree that production interns do a lot of work for little recognition, with the implied social contract that they will get *something* back out of the transaction. How much they get back out of it depends somewhat on their negotiation skills but also on the attitudes and morals of the employers. A great employer will think of interns the same way the trades masters of old had apprentices - people you bring up in the trade in exchange for their commitment of time and effort. Bad employers think of internships as just a way to scam free labor.

There's scutwork... and then there's abuse.

Legit drudgery/ menial tasks like organizing a tape library, making dubs, data entry supporting an edit, cleaning and putting away gear after a production, picking up props and supplies from suppliers, parking the vehicles, ...and maybe picking up coffees and lunches for the crew... these are low-status, untrained, yet necessary tasks that contribute to overall project success and that a production intern could expect to be part of their day. But low as they are, the work should offer *some* kind of compensation, be it money, academic credits, access to the gear and some training... something. I think bathroom cleaning and carpet cleaning or floor waxing is a step too far removed for a production intern. Particularly unpaid bathroom maintenance. That's just abuse, and it's robbing a legit maintenance worker of their living.

It has been a long time since I had the pleasure of working with and mentoring interns. But we always took them seriously, and for every hour of menial tasks they did, we spent at least as much time teaching them lighting, camera, sound, and editing techniques, coaching them, helping them prepare their own productions and demo reels. When they left us, be they high school seniors or college postgrads, they had a a demo reel and a year's worth of production skill on industry-standard cameras, lighting, sound and editing systems, and experience working as production crew, gained over just a handful of months. Plus an academic credit, and for the postgrads, a small stipend. They could walk onto a set anywhere and be productive immediately. They could be handed a script and execute it. And if they were very good, they had us as a respected reference.

I don't know enough about the McBride situation to make a definitive judgement, but it sounds from my initial surface impressions like a personal services assistant position and not a production internship. Personal assistants get all manner of ridiculous demands made of them and that's understood. And they should expect to be paid for the work. I would think toilet cleaning would be a step too far, particularly if uncompensated.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 14, 2018 at 3:22:27 pm

[Mark Suszko] "I think there's more people that are in sympathy with Bob than not, it's just a matter of degree. I think we basically all would agree that production interns do a lot of work for little recognition, with the implied social contract that they will get *something* back out of the transaction. "

I agree that that's the typical industry POV on interns, and I think it's part of the problem. There is no implied social contract as unpaid internships are a matter of law. It's like saying there's an implied social contract that when I go shopping that the store will get *something* back in exchange for all of the products I loaded into my shopping cart. 😉

Below is the federal legal test of what constitutes an unpaid internship:

1. The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment;

2. The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern;

3. The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff;

4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded;

5. The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship; and

6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship.


The term "internship" got hijacked because saying "Hey, I need you to work for me 40hrs a week for no pay" doesn't sound appealing where as "internship" has an air of legitimacy to it. If someone needs grunt work done then just put out an ad that says "need grunt work done, pay is minimum wage'.

But there is good news to everyone that wants people to work for them but doesn't want to pay them any money, in 2018 the Dept. of Labor issued new guidelines about internships that are much more relaxed and flexible than the previous rules which I listed above.


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Bob Zelin
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 14, 2018 at 4:41:21 pm

well, as I read more about this -
these "interns" were working at this place -
https://www.blackbirdstudio.com/

so it's a nice recording studio in Nashville. When I got into working, and I wanted to be in this business (entertainment - audio, video, it didn't make a difference) - I was willing to do anything, just to get in. When you have an entry level employee, or an intern - do they actually expect that they are going to be mixing an album, because they are willing to work for free ? Exactly why would anyone want an intern in their facility - to "give back to the younger generation" ? As an intern, you take this free work, to get experience, to learn whatever you can while you are there (in between getting coffee). I was recently reading a bio on guitarist Slash, who got a job at a recording studio in Los Angles. The first thing they did was to hand him some money, and told him to get lunch for everyone. He did not like that, and took the money, and never went back. That was his decision. If I wanted to learn recording techniques, and this was my opportunity to get in, I would do whatever it would take. This is EXCACTLY what Jon Bon Jovi did for Power Station studios in NY City (when he worked for his uncle Tony Bonjiovi) - he cleaned toilets, and got a chance to record at night when the studio was not being used. Was he paid some measly sum - I have no idea - perhaps. If he made minimum wage cleaning those toilets, was that degrading for him ? Should he have missed this opportunity. As you may know, he "made it" soon after that opportunity.

Those of you, who have been doing this for a while - you see the "kids" that come in - some are aggressive, and ambitious and "make it" (as editors, colorists, mixers, DP's, etc.) and some NEVER make it. So is this "unfair" to the weaker kids, that are not as ambitious, and aggressive ? Should everything be fair, with a level playing field ?
Are we talking about real life here ?

and from this article (on Billy Joel) -
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/entertainment/music/sdut-billy-joel-int...
A: Oh, yeah, I sneaked in places without a ticket. I went to see Jimi Hendrix back in the late 1960s. He was playing at what is now Flushing Meadows Tennis Stadium, where they have the U.S. Open. I went with a friend and made believe I was one of Hendrix’s roadies. I had on a baseball cap and wrapped some (electrical) cable around my shoulder. I started to try to talk with an English accent: ‘Jimi’s got these cables I need to take to him.’ I made my way closer and closer inside the venue, and I finally got close to backstage.

Then. Jimi’s famous roadie, Keith Robertson, motioned to me, and said: ‘You, come over here! You’re pretty good. Now, I’m going to put you to work.’ He had me lug Hendrix’s huge Marshall (speaker cabinets) onstage. ... I spent the entire concert on the edge of the rotating stage, watching Hendrix perform — and watching my friends in the audience. I couldn’t believe it, and neither could they! I did that (phony roadie) thing a number of times.

So Billy Joel "lugged and setup equipment for free" for Jimi Hendrix. With all the retroactive lawsuits these days, perhaps Billy Joel can successfully sue the estate of Jimi Hendrix.





Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Kylee Peña
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 14, 2018 at 5:33:45 pm

Bob, your viewpoint is toxic and damaging to the future of the entertainment industry. The idea that "I suffered, so everyone else should after me" is selfish and absolutely silly. Thankfully this way of thinking is slowly disappearing.

Exactly why would anyone want an intern in their facility - to "give back to the younger generation" ?

Yes, if they're unpaid. An unpaid internship is an educational experience and a chance for an employer to get to know the next generation and find new talent while teaching good habits from the beginning.

So is this "unfair" to the weaker kids, that are not as ambitious, and aggressive ? Should everything be fair, with a level playing field ?

It's not about weak vs. aggressive. It's about being able to take part in an unpaid internship to begin with. One of the biggest reasons our industry lacks critical diversity and inclusion is because underrepresented people are less likely to be able to sacrifice their earning potential and work for free in these internships.

Here is a quote from a paper I co-wrote that describes this issue:

"A 2016 survey by the Blue Collar Post Collective showed that the majority of post production professionals took on three internships before finding employment, and most of them were unpaid. But when we fail to consider the full measure of a person’s life – one that would grant them the ability to work for free for a number of weeks or even years – we’re almost certainly removing important context from that person’s career. The truth is that only privileged individuals can work for free – so get rid of that privilege by paying everyone.

For example, on average, women are paid less than men within the same industry while also taking on more household work regardless of their breadwinner status. Because of their economic and societal disadvantages combined with the gender-related expectations thrust upon them, it becomes infinitely more difficult for a woman to take an unpaid opportunity. A woman is less likely to have savings or a support system willing to send her off to work for free for weeks on end.

A Blue Collar Post Collective survey of US-based post production professionals who studied an industry-based program at college shows that 40% of lower-income people of color worked in jobs outside of the industry to support themselves during their studies. This is the same number of white, middle-class film school students who did unpaid internships during their college years, and did not work to support themselves during this time."


This paper was authored for the SMPTE Annual Technical Conference last year. I presented it there with one of my co-authors because this is an important topic and SMPTE knows it's important.

I also wrote an article a while back on the three internships I did. Two of them were illegal by today's standards. I got something out of all of them, but only because I had the ability to work for free.

You can find the article in the COW library because it's an important topic and the COW knows it's important.

For what it's worth, I'm not here to change Bob's mind. That ship has sailed. I'm replying here for all the younger people who lurk the forums and think that certain aspects of this industry are impossible and unchanging. Not true -- lots of us are out here making things better than we experienced them.

blog: kyleepena.com
twitter: @kyl33t


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Andrew Kimery
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 14, 2018 at 6:28:55 pm

Once again for people not paying attention:

1. The McBride's interns are NOT the ones suing. A former employ is suing because he thinks he was fired in retaliation for reporting the McBride's alleged unlawful business practices to the Dept. of Labor.

2. Unpaid internships are a very specific thing codified in Federal and/or State law. Just because someone calls their opening an "internship" doesn't mean what they are doing is actually legal. It's no different than full time employees being illegally classified as contractors so the employer can save money on overhead.

3. People shouldn't be against the idea that employees should be properly compensated for their work.


[Kylee Peña] "I'm replying here for all the younger people who lurk the forums and think that certain aspects of this industry are impossible and unchanging. Not true -- lots of us are out here making things better than we experienced them."

Agreed 100%.


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Bob Zelin
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 14, 2018 at 7:43:41 pm

your perception of everything is "interesting" and "innocent". I know this will not be a nice reply, but it's an accurate one, in my opinion. It's the way I view the world. It's the way I believe that many people who are successful in business view the world.

This has nothing to do with race (black/white/Hispanic/indian/Asian) or gender (male/female/LBGQT). It has to do with competition.

As you know, I am currently involved in the shared storage industry, and have been involved with video engineering and installation for a long time. I usually compete with other white men, that happen to be very nice people. While I may view them as "nice people" - they are basically my enemies. It is MY JOB to make sure that people hire ME, and to make sure that they do not hire THEM. That means that I get as much of the piece of pie as possible, leaving their families and themselves starving. I don't care if they go out of business - I hope they go out of business. It is the job of Apple to make sure that people use FCP X and not Resolve, and not AVID, and not Adobe. And it's Adobe's job to make sure that people use Adobe and not FCP X, etc. And if those other companies collapse, and go out of business, well that's GREAT - they can get another job in another industry. It's dog eat dog, and I don't care what the business is - if you make movies, you want people to see your movie - screw the other movie. If you have a post production company, you want all the agencies to use your post house - screw the other post production houses. You do everything you can to make sure that YOU win. Well - what about all the nice people that are in these other companies. Who cares - all that matters is that YOU get all or most of the business, and you learn what you have to learn, and invest in what you have to invest in, so that YOU get hired for the next production, and the other guy never gets hired again.
This mindset (which I have developed myself after doing this for a long time) is how business works. And in real life, with all the "crying babies" out there, I observe what is really happening in the world in the big picture. You look at life in the Foxxconn factory where Apple products are made. Are these people's lives better or worse than the poor interns that had to clean the bathrooms in the nice recording studio in Nashville ? They are worse - are we all going to stop buying Apple products because of this ?
So it relates to me, because as you may know, I am heavily involved now with Chinese manufacturers who are "kicking the butt's" of the American companies that I have dealt with for years. And I am friendly with all the American companies, and their owners, and engineers - and they are all nice guys. But they will ultimately be pushed out of business because of these Chinese companies, and their low prices. The American companies can't complete with these prices. After all, they and their employees need to pay for medical insurance, etc. And how do the Chinese companies have such low prices ? I am sure that their employees are suffering - much worse than the intern who had to clean the bathroom. But do I really care ? Do any of my customers (yes, all you people on Cow) - really care about these American employees ? NO - you just want your LOW prices, so you can make as much money as you can, so you can get your medical insurance, send your kids to college, and have a nice vacation.

This is all a miserable example, but it's the way the world works. Life is unfair. You have to fight, and some people will suffer. The playing field is not level. People who don't deserve opportunities, get the opportunities, and perhaps you, who is dramatically more qualified should have those opportunities. And when you lose out on those opportunities, it's your JOB to go after that person (not physically, but in business) and STOP THEM FROM WORKING - to discredit them, to show how much better that you are, and that (once you get in) that THEY will NEVER work again with your clients, and that YOU are the only one that your client will ever want to work with.

I mean after all - isn't that what Creative Cow did almost single handedly to the print business in the video industry. Do you think that Ron Lindeboom and Tim Wilson feel bad for killing off Videography, Post (still barely in business), Broadcast Engineering, and SO MANY OTHER publications ? Creative Cow was a nuclear bomb to these publications, and only a small handful (like ProVideo Coalition and FCP.CO) could continue to compete. The other companies DIED. Their employees are now unemployed and had to find other things to do for work. Does Ron and Tim feel bad about this every evening ? I don't think so.

The minute you are "fair", someone else (perhaps in another country) will not be fair - and they will take your job. You have to do whatever it takes - especially in a competitive industry like we are in.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Kylee Peña
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 14, 2018 at 7:53:41 pm

It does have to do with gender and race. Your continued lack of acceptance of scientific facts and peer-reviewed research is not a good look. We must provide equal access TO compete. That isn't what is happening now by putting superficial barriers at the start.

Since your response was mostly incomprehensible and irrelevant to this conversation, I'll leave it at that except to remind you that I'm successful in this industry too.

blog: kyleepena.com
twitter: @kyl33t


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Mark Suszko
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 14, 2018 at 8:11:57 pm

As great as the COW is, and while I'm sure it will give Tim and Ron a grin, I hesitate to concur with your statement that it alone devastated the paper-based industry media organs. Rather, I'd say the rise of the COW coincided with their downfall from a number of reasons, including postage costs and other "inputs" like paper and transportation and storage and printing, that were becoming more costly and reducing profit margins... even the COW did a paper-based magazine for a time, but I think that too fell away as online became more prevalent. (correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the printed mag is available any more) Like the evolutionary shift where dinos were dying off and fast little mammals began their ascendance, the online niche that the COW and some others occupy expanded and thrived, while the old print-based ecosystem became unsustainable and unresponsive. The COW didn't "kill" anything, so much as the "victims" walked themselves off a cliff by refusing to change course. That's my own take on it.

I'd also opine that one reason the COW did so well was that the content was timely and authentic, being highly user-based with a lot of industry pros contributing content, versus print-based mags that were not able to stay ahead of rapidly evolving topics, and their over-emphasis on "advertorial" content that was thinly-disguised advertising or obvious re-writes of press releases, with little "actionable" material to the average tech/creative person in the field. If you DID get something usable out of, say, DV Magazine, you had to wait months for it. That was my main complaint about POST; it was a pretty, glossy thing to lay on the coffee table by the client's couch and look cool, but whenever I thumbed thru it, it was like the society party coverage pages of a newspaper; who merged with whom, who opened a new boutique, who won an award for what. But rarely anything I could use about, you know, actual *editing*... It was all Architectural Digest and not "Home Handyman" or "Popular Mechanics". Even for free, it gave me no value.

Not so with the COW. Got a question? Get an answer. Today. Before lunch, even. And people offering actual how-to tutorials, and discussing their trade-craft openly. Not because it did THEM some immediate, particular good. But because it felt good to share and to benefit from the sharing of others, non-competitively. I can't remember a single thing from any of my old printed subscriptions that I could have actually put to use on the job... but the COW still helps me almost every day.


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Rich Rubasch
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 14, 2018 at 8:23:02 pm

I loved the paper COW magazine.....oh the nostalgia.

What we have done is bring on eager graduates onto sets and let them experience many things, and we pay them. But I have not done formal internships because the rules are strict and we can't maintain the amount of attention it requires, and the rigid time period involved. But the ones who do say "yes" and bring a positive attitude, regardless who they are, usually go on to do greater things, or even become part of our regular crew list. I have two or three of those I can think of, all are either African American or female.

Attitude is the winner here.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 15, 2018 at 12:57:17 am

[Rich Rubasch] "I loved the paper COW magazine.....oh the nostalgia."

We loved it too! We talk about it all the time. We were wondering just yesterday about how we might revisit it at some point.

When Ronald had to step down for a few years for health reasons back in 2012, we pulled the plug on it. Our way of working together was too intimate and idiosyncratic for me to want to rebuild with someone else, and a 64-page magazine (plus regular 16-page supplements) is not a one-person operation -- heck, I'm stupefied that we could do it with just TWO of us.

We were still moving upward in subscriptions and ad revenue at the time, and were days away from shipping our biggest issue yet when Ron hit the wall. I strongly, strongly encouraged him to stop, too, but we'd still be going today if Ron hadn't gotten sick, no doubt in my mind whatsoever.

Creative COW Magazine is what took the other magazines out of print (we took out 5 competitors in the first year alone!), NOT the COW dot net. Vendors typically have completely separate budgets for print and web, and they're often not even managed by the same person, sometimes not even the same department or ad agency. Nothing happening on the web was ever going to shake those print budgets.

And when I say "we took out", I want to underscore that we mapped this out on a whiteboard. We picked our targets, planned our approach, and set dates by which we wanted them gone. We just had no idea how easy it would be, or how thoroughly we'd wipe some of these guys out. Many of them (DV, Millimeter, etc.) don't even have web presences anymore.

Along the way, Ronald had a compelling, unique vision for how to build print magazines on the foundation of web communities, rather than having the web erode the print business. It was startling enough that Folio Magazine, the trade magazine of print publishers, named him to their Folio 40 Visionaries. The magazine that came out of this vision really, truly was special.

But that's a story for another day.

Here's the story for today, and really, to me, the only point of the story:

[Andrew Kimery] "The McBride's aren't being sued by former interns. They are being sued by a former employee that claims his termination was retaliatory because he reported the McBride's illegally run internship program to the Department of Labor."

This is so important that ima quote it again:

[Andrew Kimery] "The McBride's aren't being sued by former interns. They are being sued by a former employee that claims his termination was retaliatory because he reported the McBride's illegally run internship program to the Department of Labor."

What the McBrides were purportedly doing was ILLEGAL, both the theft of labor (which they're trying to euphemize as "unpaid internships") and the retaliatory firing.

I don't care that it's how we came up back in the day. I don't care that that's how they did it at Sound City. The way we came up was stupid, venal, exploitative, should never have happened, and IS NOW ILLEGAL.

Oh for the good old days when capitalists could steal labor from children! Eff that.

And 10 million EFFs to Billy Joel. He's proud of stealing from Jimi Hendrix by sneaking into shows? Jimi worked himself literally to death(forget the stupid heroin stories -- never happened) because his record deal gave him 1.5 cents per dollar (that's right -- one and a half pennies per dollar; the band split 3 cents on the dollar, so the other 2 guys got three quarters of a cent each) while his management was taking 40%. He got kidnapped by the mob and threatened with his life when he tried to open a recording studio in Harlem (remember that? didn't think so) that would have allowed him to control his own revenue streams, so what he was left with was shows (including a "benefit" concert for those mob promoters that was basically playing for his own ransom).

And Billy Joel stole even THAT, and not just from Jimi. I'm glad to hear the story, though. Billy's never getting another cent from me, and he's gotten plenty over the years. But I'm not going to STEAL anything from him in the future, ffs. He's dead to me, and that's that.

That's the thing. Nothing about his story is ennobling. It's sickening, and I bet that's not how he's teaching his kids to come up, either. Sneaking into shows? You think he's giving jobs to people that try to sneak into his shows? I bet his security has orders to tase them, if not dump them in the East River.


[Kylee Peña] "You can find the article in the COW library because it's an important topic and the COW knows it's important."

Effin' A. An Oral History of My Illegal Internships

(And yes, I'm hoppin' mad and cussin' up a storm.)

Here's my favorite quote from it, my addition of boldface in the middle.

And I would really really hope that those people in the industry that benefitted from internships, either from gaining skills or getting a job, would recognize that no matter how well they managed to do, it would have been a better, more equal educational experience if they hadn’t been taken advantage of for free work. And by extension, that they would advocate for better, more equal educational opportunities for those coming up behind them instead of enforcing the status quo as a matter of paying ones’ dues.


THAT's the point.

That Irish family in Hell's Kitchen you heard about with 7 kids and 2 grownups in a tenement with a hotplate and one bathroom down the hall that 10 similar families shared? That was my father's family, and his goal was for me to share my bathroom with many, many fewer people. LOL Maybe even have one inside my actual apartment.

That's what we're supposed to do, too -- make sure that the next kid in line doesn't get screwed like we did.

I don't care if some kid is gonna wind up "softer" than me or whatever nonsense because she got paid minimum wage for her internship. PAY HER.

The gubmint has gone out of its way to protect moguls who want to keep stealing labor from kids. As Andrew points out, the guidelines are nice and crisp, and easier to follow than ever. So if you're too lazy or greedy to color within the lines of the laws that protect outright theft, you really do need to get slapped.

Bob, I'm really glad that you've spent a career kicking down the walls that have kept knowledge locked away from customers, or that companies just haven't had enough interest to care about sharing where people will actually see it. You helped me in my own business back in the day, and I appreciate you still banging away all these years later.

But man, I really do see the villains here being anyone who expects anyone else to work for them for free, NOT the people who are advocating for people getting paid (again noting that it's not the interns themselves suing, but the guy who got fired for turning in the McBrides for breaking the law). Bosses can say all day long, "Yeah, but look what the kids are getting out of it," and I guarantee that the kids wouldn't be getting any less out of the experience if the employer was also following the law.

We at the COW may look like giants, but there's only 3 of us, and there really were just 2 of us doing the magazine. We've spent our lives fighting much bigger, deeper-pocketed competitors, and we're never going to be happy to hear about someone having to go through what we did. We're hoping they can do better with their careers. We're hoping we can help them do better.

And yes, by the way, if I'd seen this earlier, I'd have probably turned it off, but you've raised some interesting questions, and sparked some interesting insights so I'm provisionally leaving it on. Provisionally. 😎

🐮


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Andrew Kimery
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 14, 2018 at 8:16:59 pm

[Bob Zelin] "You have to do whatever it takes - especially in a competitive industry like we are in. "

Yet here, on the COW, people help the competition every day. Mentors help their future competition everyday. People posting How To and DIY videos/blogs help their competition every day. Other editors have helped me get work and I've helped other editors get work.

The picture you paint is only a one part of the whole. The world, and the industry, is changing Bob and you've become the inflexible dinosaur you warned against a decade ago.


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Bob Zelin
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 14, 2018 at 9:11:01 pm

Hey Andrew -
gee, I could be wrong, but it appears that a dinosaur like me is one of the only people who seem willing to assist others on these forums with storage issues. I could be wrong, but it appears that almost every company will not assist anyone on any of these forums unless 1) you give them a lot of money, and 2) you pay for their support contract, and 3) if you expect free support, you are getting nothing. Now granted, I do this in hopes that people might say "hey, this guy seems to know what he's doing - maybe we should hire him to help us". Which is exactly why I participate. I have been fortunate enough to have this happen on a regular basis, which is why I participate on Cow, and several other forums related to our industry. I don't see the "warm friendly faces" of other manufacturers coming here (and other forums) to give out free advice. It's the very reason people give presentations at user groups and trade shows. They do it to "promote their business and themselves" - and not to "give back to the community to help others".
It appears that others, that are actively involved in on line training or reviews in technology, are not doing it because they are "nice guys" but to get lots of "hits" on things like YouTube and Instagram, to turn it into a business model. When you give accurate training and information, on things like how to do complex stuff in Davinci Resolve (for example) - the purpose of doing this is to present yourself as an expert, and in turn, people who need experts will hire you. To think that it's being done solely for philanthropic reasons "to give back to the community" - well, I don't think anyone does this.

And with that said - back to the original story - the intern who is willing to stick it out at Blackbird Studios in Nashville - you know, the kid that's cleaning the toilets, and getting lunch. That kid, who sticks it out, will ultimately be given the opportunity to learn the equipment, to assist in sessions, to work with budget new artists that don't have the budget to work with bigger engineers. And perhaps one of those young artists will start to make it, and take that intern and bring them on the road to mix for them live.

You guys should watch the wonderful movie "Sound City" - about this dumpy recording studio in Van Nuys. Many interns, and people that worked for crap money became famous from working at that studio, and went on to have thriving careers in the recording industry. It represents what "sticking it out" means. And not to kill the movie, but many of these "interns" who learned, eventually took Sound City's client base, and Sound City eventually went under. That's how it works - you work for someone, they make money from your labor, you learn the business, you learn THEIR BUSINESS, you open your own company, you steal their business, the "evil owners" (you know - the ones that made you clean the toilets) - they GO OUT of business. You win. Screw them. It's war.

Keep fighting.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Tom Sefton
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 15, 2018 at 7:40:38 am

I thought in Sound City, that basically everyone came out of it with barely any money. The guy who owned the studio made next to nothing after rick springfield dropped him like a stone and all of his studio operators got to work on cool albums for a salary. The woman who ran the studio for years didn’t get a pension or a payout after the studio closed and the guy who swept up and cleaned toilets was the one in tears at the end because she, and he, had been treated so shabbily by a studio that had recorded some of the greatest albums in rock history? Yes analogue was beautiful, but it looked like that studio should have still been open if it had made some good decisions in the 90s.

The rags to riches story I do remember from a documentary is the Netflix made “Defiant Ones” about Dre and Jimmy Iovine, but they made money from owning labels and headphone companies, not from the lunch bringing/bog cleaning/sweeping up career path.

Co-owner at Pollen Studio
http://www.pollenstudio.co.uk


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Patrick Sheppard
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 15, 2018 at 3:40:38 pm

Hi all,

Just chiming in here to share my point of view on this topic.

I agree with Mr. Rubasch about attitude being a determining factor. I don't agree with the idea that people inherently "deserve" good, because that would imply that we are perfect and are owed good things because of that, as though good were somehow due to us as payment merely because we exist. I doubt anyone here would argue that we are perfect, and if you DO think that way then frankly you're deceived. No, I believe that the good things that happen to us are gifts of grace, given because of mercy (grace is another way of saying help). No gift is deserved or owed, but is given freely. Otherwise it is not a gift, but a wage in return for what has been worked for. Every good gift should be humbly received as such, with a thankful heart and attitude.

In general, I agree that it’s better for employers to have paid internships rather than unpaid. I had two internships in high school related to my current profession, and both of them were paid. Both of them were valuable experiences, and a blessing, and totally undeserved, especially seeing now how I was back then.

I don’t agree with some of Mr. Zelin’s point of view, though it seems understandable why he (and many people) would think that way. At the same time, I believe I see part of what may be an underlying point of his. There are a lot of “whiny babies” in this world who believe that simply because they exist means they are entitled to good things, and this simply isn’t true. Entitlement is another word for deserving something, in which case the first paragraph above applies.

I would ask a person who believes they’re entitled: Are you perfect? (Let me help you out with that: the answer is no.) Then you do not inherently deserve good things. If you ARE perfect, then you DO deserve good things because you qualify for them on the basis of justice. But again, you are not perfect, and you therefore need grace, which is a freely given gift that must be received as such.

Otherwise you are an imperfect individual who is trying to TAKE what you believe you “deserve" on the basis of justice, rather than receiving grace as a free gift and being thankful for it. Most of the world is in the former category. Such people believe they are owed good and therefore try to take good, often from other people, which results in gross selfishness and all kinds of evil against others, which in the end results in evil against the taker as well. “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked: Whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.” Believe what you want about what I just said. It is the truth.

As for leveling the playing field, I very much disagree with this point of view and the systems and programs in place to support it, because it is man’s attempt to use government to regulate and even force people into doing what should be their free choice to make. This doesn’t mean I’m against certain types of people having opportunities to advance. No no!!! Not at all! I’m against big government, as were our founding fathers (and if you disagree with that then I encourage you to see the wealth of information available to you on David Barton’s website wallbuilders.com).

What I’m saying is that in order to succeed in life, we must humble ourselves and acknowledge that nobody inherently deserves good, but rather that we reap what we sow in EVERY area of life. Whatever conditions a person may begin their life in, with the right vision, and with reliance on God as their source rather than man or government, they CAN come up and out of even the most adverse conditions and succeed, and do so without doing evil to others but instead actually getting to a place where they can be a blessing and a help to other people. Incidentally, such help could include providing opportunities like paid internships and employment for others with the right attitude (notice I said attitude, not skill set).

God "raises up the poor out of the dust and lifts up the oppressed from the dunghill to make them sit with princes and inherit a throne of glory.”

I have a real example of this that I personally know about: In the city I grew up in, I learned about three African American men who all grew up in the same housing project and knew each other. These three men took three entirely different paths in life. One of them became a world heavyweight boxing champion. One of them, last I saw him, was a food server at a mall eatery takeout restaurant. The third one was my former employer, which is how I came to know of this story. We’ve since lost touch, but thus far he has been my favorite employer, and also a good and generous (and very patient) friend. He used to talk to me about his drive to succeed and the things he would do to excel at the talents he had, and into adulthood he owned a very lucrative business (where I was employed at the time). We often walked across the street for lunch at the aforementioned mall, to the eatery where his childhood acquaintance/friend filled our divided styrofoam containers with our food selections.

Did these three men all have the same opportunities? Maybe yes, maybe no.

But what did that depend on? Their circumstances?

No. We’ve already established that they came from the same beginnings, and they all had different levels of success (my former boss lived quite well, and the world heavyweight champion was of course a multi-millionaire). So what was the determining factor? I submit to you that it was their VISION, and their resulting attitude (or lack thereof) of thanksgiving and their level of expectation. “Without a vision, the people perish.”

If this is the case (and I believe that it is), then the responsibility lies entirely with the PERSON, NOT with the government, to determine what opportunities that person does or does not have in life, as well as what they do or do not achieve, and what level of success they experience.

Receive that for what it’s worth to you. Whether you realize it or not, I just handed you a huge solid gold nugget. 😃


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Mark Suszko
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 15, 2018 at 5:16:30 pm

Scrappiness and will to work are essential to succeed. But they don't guarantee success. You can be the hardest-working, most deserving and ruthless Randian SOB out there and still not catch a break. You can be totally undeserving and have it fall into your lap. The odds favor the prepared and the striving. But the winners in the race often don't recognize that we don't all get an even start. And the system has evolved to not be a level playing field. leveling the playing field is not about entitlement, except that you are entitled under our laws to have the same shot as anybody else, and the rest is still up to the individual.








I like this video, but the referee should have also said near the end: "take four steps back if you have 2 x chromosomes." Because women HAVE been handed an uneven playing field, in this business. There's no denying it. And it won't fix itself. We have to take active steps to do it, or it won't get done.


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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 15, 2018 at 8:31:14 pm

Wow, Bob, when did we pull your posts? I haven't done one in many years and Kathlyn says she hasn't touched anything but outright spam. That leaves Tim who wears iron undies and loves to watch the mayhem ensue in the wake of your posts. (Truth be told, I always love to watch it, too.) 😃

So, if you were going for a clickbait title, it worked -- though it's not very accurate. 😘

I hope you're doing well, Bob.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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Bob Zelin
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 15, 2018 at 9:14:53 pm

one thing we ALL can agree on -

LONG LIVE THE COW !

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
bobzelin@icloud.com


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Todd Terry
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 15, 2018 at 9:16:55 pm

... and good to see Ron making a B&M appearance!

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Ronald Lindeboom
Re: yet another political post that will get pulled from Cow -
on Jun 16, 2018 at 12:24:08 am

Thank you, Todd, for the kind words. It took years to get my health back but I've been lurking around here again and fixing a bunch of the broken things, as well as working on some improvements. It's nice to see that some things (and people) don't change -- thank you for being a part of this thing for so many years, now.

Best regards,

Ronald Lindeboom
CEO, Creative COW LLC

Creativity is a process wherein the student and the teacher are located in the same individual.


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