BUSINESS AND MARKETING: Business and Marketing Forum Business and Marketing Articles

For all you employers out there

COW Forums : Business & Marketing

<< PREVIOUS   •   FAQ   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Rich RubaschFor all you employers out there
by on Feb 15, 2014 at 7:45:47 pm

Seems like every young candidate for a position, be it animator or editor, already has outside gigs going on. As an employer I am more traditional and appreciate loyalty to the goals of the company and its team. But the young guys might have been editing and creating animations for several years and may even have a small side business already set up as they seek full time employment. I hate to think that they are distracted at their 8-5 job with us as they ponder this other side project that might be more interesting to them, not giving as much to what we are doing.

How do you address these youngsters with a career already in progress who also want a full time gig? I have my own ideas but wondering if you have a specific policy you set as to your expectations as you consider a new hire.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


Return to posts index

Steve KownackiRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 15, 2014 at 8:36:32 pm

Keen observation Rich.

I don't think you can ever get their 100% buy-in to you because many (not all) are not business people. They love the freedoms, the cash (as many don't get the tax implications of self-employment), they are busy off and on and think they are making money. When things get lean they look for a job, generally have impressive reels, but lack work ethic, commitment and experience being bitched at by a boss.

If they are considering becoming an employee, show them a non-compete while they are employed, not just after they depart.

Steve





Return to posts index

Kylee PeñaRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 16, 2014 at 12:25:08 am

I'm not an employer, but I'm a young editor that has had side projects happening during a 9-5 job so you might find my perspective interesting.

I would not go to work for most employers that had any policy that said I couldn't keep up side work, if that's what you're considering. Besides being a financial necessity sometimes, it's just a creative outlet to try new things, learn more stuff, and make something you really like. At my previous job, it helped keep me sane and motivated for an employer that otherwise did not try to engage my skills. Sometimes if your employees are waning, it can be a reflection of yor management. Not always, but sometimes.

I think that side work is good and if you're a good employer it will pay off for you. As long is there is no conflict of interest, of course. But like anything else, if it affects job performance, it's an issue and should be treated like any other job distraction issue.

Most young editors I know have had to fight really hard to make work happen on their own. It's not that they don't want to be bitched at by a boss or they're lacking work ethic. They've just gotten into the habit of being very busy to pay their bills.

blog: kyleesportfolio.com/blog
twitter: @kyl33t
demo: kyleewall.com


Return to posts index


Andrew KimeryRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 16, 2014 at 1:29:49 am

[Rich Rubasch] " I have my own ideas but wondering if you have a specific policy you set as to your expectations as you consider a new hire."

If they are performing at or above expectations does it matter what they do outside of work?

Like Kylee, I do side work to make extra money, get experience I normally wouldn't get and/or experiment with software/workflows I normally wouldn't use. It never interferes with my day job (if anything they reap the benefits of extracurricular 'training' they didn't pay for).

I guess if you don't want employees to have side gigs pay them a lot and make sure they are always working on projects they find interesting.

My advice is to roll with it and not make it an issue unless their work with you is being negatively impacted by it. I worked at one company for 5 years and our post supervisor was very cool with us doing side gigs as he knew the day job wasn't the end all, be all of what we wanted to accomplish as editors. Pretty much the whole time there I had side gigs but they never negatively impacted my work (once he even let me shuffle my schedule around for 3 months and I basically worked for him full time and on a documentary full time). If side gigs would've been 'banned' I would've left that job after 6 months.


Return to posts index

Tim WilsonRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 16, 2014 at 1:59:54 am

[Kylee Wall] "Most young editors I know have had to fight really hard to make work happen on their own. It's not that they don't want to be bitched at by a boss or they're lacking work ethic. They've just gotten into the habit of being very busy to pay their bills."

Great point. Taking on extra jobs should not be considered synonymous with laziness.

I also like your point about side work being a creative outlet. Sure, your employees shouldn't be working directly for competitors, but otherwise, there's a culture of 24-hours working that I think older bosses *cough*my age*cough* don't understand. It's why social media has grown. Asking kids to stop what they're doing isn't just impractical, it's impossible.

The best solution of all is to keep them so engaged that they don't need other creative outlets, and pay them enough that they don't need a second job.

They're still going to want to do side work, but at least you'll have done your part. :-)



Tim Wilson
Creative COW
I don't need a link to that in my sig


Return to posts index

walter biscardiRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 16, 2014 at 2:26:28 am

[Rich Rubasch] "How do you address these youngsters with a career already in progress who also want a full time gig? I have my own ideas but wondering if you have a specific policy you set as to your expectations as you consider a new hire."

As long as they're not doing work for a direct competitor, I have no issues with it. Keeps them creative, they can try out and learn things if they're working on different kinds of projects and bring that knowledge back to our shop.

I even let them use my shop on their own time if they want to. That IS a company policy.

Sometimes they need some help with the projects and then we can bring that element of the work into the shop.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Southeast Creative Summit, Returning in 2014!
Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

Blog Twitter Facebook


Return to posts index


John DavidsonRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 16, 2014 at 2:54:04 am

I'm with Walter on this. We actually had the conversation about it this week with the team. If they want to get some side work, as long as it doesn't affect our 9-5 work, they can use our facilities nights and weekends to make whatever they want. The rules are, don't use anything copywritten that we've paid for and don't keep your personal stuff on our servers. Our insurance will not cover these projects, so that needs to be clear. Other than that, have fun.

Walter, we may have similar past experiences working for CNN in regards to this. The best thing about working there was was using those facilities for personal stuff during off hours. It helped make up for low pay!

John Davidson | President / Creative Director | Magic Feather Inc.


Return to posts index

walter biscardiRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 18, 2014 at 3:32:36 pm

[John Davidson] "Walter, we may have similar past experiences working for CNN in regards to this. The best thing about working there was was using those facilities for personal stuff during off hours. It helped make up for low pay!"

Absolutely. That and the ability to really learn the gear on our own time.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Southeast Creative Summit, Returning in 2014!
Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

Blog Twitter Facebook


Return to posts index

Bill DavisRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 16, 2014 at 4:52:05 am

If you're an employer, it sucks. But look around. What's you're "brand" as an employer look like in 2014?

How many stories have you seen in the public consciousness where an employer has stood up and protected or reflected the value of their employees? Now compare that to the number of stories you've seen where employer after employer has their full time employees literally collecting public assistance benefits in order to survive?

During the economic downturn, companies, large, medium and small shed staff RUTHLESSLY. I totally understand that might have been necessary in order to financially survive, but can you honestly blame all those displaced workers from feeling that "employers" as a class have little concern for the workers that drive their enterprises?

A huge theme running around global society is the whole 1% meme. Corporate profits solidly up. Owners doing great. And, so, in general public thinking, those in economic decision making seats are seen as protecting the interests of the ownership class and squeezing every dime possible from workers in the front line seats.

I'm not saying that thinking is always accurate or fair or warranted, I'm saying its a STRONG public perception animated by the past few years where those with significant resources went into a "capital preservation" mode, and didn't give much thought to showing their human resources the type of employer loyalty and generosity that builds in an individual a desire to become a "company player." Raises? Forget it - it's a crappy economy - then a few days later the company announces profits are up. You think employees don't see that? Again and again and again?

If you're a wall street journal reader you can talk about how that profit performance makes the cost of capital lower and keeps the engine going all you like - but all the people on the line see is that Milk is up 5% TWICE and they haven't seen a raise in 36 months.

As the economy continues to improve, bosses are going to have to contend with this.

The people who do the work in the trenches will likely NEVER have the loyalty to their employers that prior generations did.

And in some ways, that's the direct result of how business owners and decision makers have conditioned them to see things.

Chickens coming home to roost a bit?

My 2 cents.

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index


walter biscardiRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 18, 2014 at 3:39:34 pm

[Bill Davis] "The people who do the work in the trenches will likely NEVER have the loyalty to their employers that prior generations did.
"


When you treat your people right, yes they absolutely will have that same loyalty.

Case in point, I had to leave my company abruptly to attend to a family emergency back home. During that time, a snowstorm hit Atlanta that shut down the city and my offices for two days. A project was due in Germany the following Monday evening.

My staff volunteered to take iMacs home with portable drives so they could continue working on the project at home to make sure the project was not only completed on time, but got the same level of attention to detail that is a hallmark of our company. Project was delivered yesterday and the client was extremely happy with the final product and the extra effort by my team.

And this is not an isolated incident. My staff continually does whatever is needed to make sure the client is happy with the end product and does extra work around the shop to help keep everything in great shape.

I treat my staff the way I like to be treated and it pays back tenfold in loyalty.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Southeast Creative Summit, Returning in 2014!
Foul Water Fiery Serpent, an original documentary featuring Sigourney Weave...
MTWD Entertainment - Developing original content for all media.
"This American Land" - our new PBS Series.
"Science Nation" - Three years and counting of Science for the People.

Blog Twitter Facebook


Return to posts index

Bill DavisRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 26, 2014 at 12:16:25 am

[walter biscardi] "When you treat your people right, yes they absolutely will have that same loyalty.

Case in point, I had to leave my company abruptly to attend to a family emergency back home. During that time, a snowstorm hit Atlanta that shut down the city and my offices for two days. A project was due in Germany the following Monday evening.
"


Walter, I absolutely and totally believe you treat your folks right.

But that's tremendously easy with a shop of 5. Still easy with a shop of 25. A solid bit more difficult with a shop of 50 - and very, very, VERY much more difficult in a shop of 500.

And having witnessed first hand, small creative shops being sucked up into larger groups, I'm just telling you that the power is no longer in the small creative boutique class, it's in the larger group class above that. That's where this battle is playing out.

This discussion reminds me of Barak Obama's first State of the Union address when he had as his guest, the factory owner who's business burned down and who kept his employees ON THE PAYROLL for the nearly a year it took to re-build the factory. It was a huge story. Why? Because it's a rare as hens teeth. That factory owner dipped into his own personal resources and spent millions to keep his people employed during a difficult time.

In the years since then, how many stories like that have you read? Do we think no other factories have burned down? No other companies have had huge layoffs when they found a way to cut labor costs by outsourcing or off-shoring?

That story was notable, because it's astonishingly RARE for a company of any SIZE to show much loyalty to anything outside the bottom line. Just last month, a CEO got publicly pilloried by complaining about having to have their company insurance cover the costs of a couple of employees kids that needed life saving surgery. At a million bucks a kid I absolutely know paying that was a nasty business hit. But I'd bet that that the same 2 million bucks could have been easily covered many times over by removing a fraction of the executive stock options in play at that same company.

That's the point. Not that there aren't white hat business owners out there. There most certainly ARE. And I bet you're one of them. As always, you guys should be celebrated. The problem is a CULTURE where in the executive suite, it's become OK to bitch and scream about how you have to cut hours and make everyone part time to avoid paying their health insurance, while you're driving one of your 20 cars to work.

There are plenty of issues surrounding "employee entitlement mentality" that need to be addressed.

I'm just arguing that there era equally PLENTY of issuers surrounding EMPLOYER entitlement mentality" as well.

Both sides would do well to look for improvement and self analysis to push toward increased fairness in the workplace.

FWIW>

Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com - video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.


Return to posts index

Mads Nybo JørgensenRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 16, 2014 at 9:25:37 am

Please allow me to play the Devil's Advocate here:

As much as I am all for people in the team being eager and getting experiences from other work, I am also concerned about suddenly finding a employee or freelancer suddenly being a direct competitor - that has happened, and sadly is likely to happen again.

However, if an employee works for 40-50 hours a week and then goes off to do other work, then there this does raise the issue about that employee being tired and not able to give you and your clients their best?
Insurance wise, it also raises the questions of an employee driving on a job whilst being to tired to do so - who is liable if there are an accident?
Or the editor developing repetitive strain injury (a recognised disability) whilst putting in 18 hours editing shifts for you, and other activities.

As one very bright person told me a long time ago: "Your employees problem is not their problem (personal or otherwise), it is your problem whether you like it or not".

There are no black and white with this one and in particularly with a new younger generation of work-force, whose expectations to work is very much different to what the previous generation(s) grew up with. But there is an aspect of you making clear your expectations, whilst being approachable and thereby being able to mentor (manage) any moon-lightening without getting a nasty surprise.

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
http://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk


Return to posts index


Bob ZelinRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 16, 2014 at 2:30:57 pm

Hi Rich -
this is just my opinion. You want the talented young guy to come work for you. And be completely focused on your business. Goal - to make YOU money. Do you offer full medical benefits to these guys at work. When they do fantastic work, to you financially reward them extra money ? When they learn on their own new programs, virtual sets, etc. that they did on their own time, and show you these skills, and you SELL THESE TALENTS AND SERVICES to your clients - do you financially reward them for this ? I bet if you did, they would have great loyalty to you, because paying people MONEY makes them very loyal. When you use their new skills to make yourself more money, that makes them ANGRY, and want to say "screw this guy".

This is my background when I was a young guy in the stone age. I worked very hard, and did all kinds of crazy overtime, and learned all kinds of things, and never got paid overtime, while others on the same crew would get more overtime, and would get more money. What my employers at the time did get was my hard work for free. What I got was EXPERIENCE, and anger, that wanted me to simply make the kind of money that I felt that I deserved. You may say "but that is what having a full time job is - I have to worry about meeting payroll, not you". But "they" see only the money. They don't see the unemployment insurance, the disability insurance, the employers contribution to social security, the rent, the equipment expense. All they see is that you are billing XXX for their services, and they are coming home with a tiny paycheck. They learn new skills on their own time, and you get to keep all the money.

Want to keep this talent around, and prevent them from ultimately screwing you. Pay them accordingly.

Bob Zelin

Bob Zelin
Rescue 1, Inc.
maxavid@cfl.rr.com


Return to posts index

Rich RubaschRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 17, 2014 at 1:28:54 am

Good stuff all. We pay better than anyone around our parts. I do worry about general burnout. Having to cut all day then head home to cut some more is not a great creative outlet. Heading out to a play or museum or to play shuffleboard or outdoor volleyball is.

I pay health benefits, have an employee IRA plan and pay a great wage. So as I consider these young new talent, I also see that they have a personal gig going and was wondering if anyone else considered how it might affect a new hire's longevity and if it mattered.

This happens because the gear and software is so readily available too. Much more so than when I started, so in our industry it is more about access than just some societal shift.

I agree...keep them doing work they enjoy and perhaps they give up the side projects to take a ceramics class instead as their outlet. Better for both of us in the long run.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media Inc.
Video Production, Post, Studio Sound Stage
Founder/President/Editor/Designer/Animator
http://www.tiltmedia.com


Return to posts index

Tim WilsonRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 17, 2014 at 3:23:03 am

[Rich Rubasch] "Having to cut all day then head home to cut some more is not a great creative outlet."

I appreciate your concern, especially after seeing that you provide good pay AND benefits. The latter in particular is too rare, so good on ya.

I think the creative outlet comes if they're cutting other stuff. Maybe narrative work on a script they wrote, or a documentary about a passionate subject. That's the stuff they'll enter in film festivals.

Of if that's the kind of stuff you're having them do on a daily basis, maybe they're cutting industrials on the side. Who knows? But it's a big ol' world, with plenty that needs creating.

So, out of curiosity, what prompted this question for you?


Return to posts index


Andrew KimeryRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 17, 2014 at 5:17:14 pm

[Mads Nybo Jørgensen] "However, if an employee works for 40-50 hours a week and then goes off to do other work, then there this does raise the issue about that employee being tired and not able to give you and your clients their best?
Insurance wise, it also raises the questions of an employee driving on a job whilst being to tired to do so - who is liable if there are an accident?
Or the editor developing repetitive strain injury (a recognised disability) whilst putting in 18 hours editing shifts for you, and other activities."


Change "has a side gig" to "is training for a marathon" or "is getting a degree" or "is a civil war reenactor". Employees have a life outside of work and there are a billion different things they could be doing that could negatively impact their time on the job. The key question is, "does it"? If the answer is "no" where's the problem?

To be totally honest, in all the places I've worked (big or small, staff or freelance, midwest or west coast) the only demographic that I've noticed duck out early on a consistent basis are parents. Families... talk about a huge distraction from work. Some people even change jobs (or stop working period!) so they can spend more time with their families. Now how is *that* fair to employers? ;)

[Rich Rubasch] "Having to cut all day then head home to cut some more is not a great creative outlet"

I would have to disagree 1000%. If someone is cutting the same type of content day in and day out the only thing keeping them sane could be the funky music video or the no-budget horror film they are doing on the side.

My advice is just to let it ride and be supportive. If they are meeting your expectations on the job where's the problem? If someone loves the job and wants to be a lifer they will. If they don't, or if they aren't sure, trying to clip their wings is just going to make things worse, not better. I think employees perform better when they feel like employers care about them as more than just revenue generating cogs in the company machine.


Return to posts index

Shane RossRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 17, 2014 at 5:36:00 pm

I do side gigs all the time. But it isn't cutting, it's online/color grading. And it doesn't take away from my main job at all...you can ask my producers. I also post on the forums a lot, and still am able to get out a good cut in a timely manner.

How, editing all day, and then going to edit for part of the night might be a tad much for me. That's using the same part of my brain. I'd prefer the break. What I do on the side is exercise another part of my brain. After cutting all day, going home to online and grade, while listening to music...is relaxing to me. Yes, it's still work, but I'm flexing different muscles.

But I have cut on the side, I know tons of editors who do as well. Mainly cutting things I don't normally get the opportunity to do...like feature docs, or narrative. I know a guy who has no family, and just cuts day and night. And does a great job on all projects...heavily sought after. I know others who are writers at night, others who do sound work...others who have hobbies like making beer or building bikes.

It all depends on the person. If you hire someone, and they do quality work, who cares if they edit on the side. Unless it is a direct competitor. You hired them to do work for you...and if they satisfy that requirement, then that should be enough. You, as an employer, don't really have a say in what people do after work...unless that interferes with the work they are doing for you. If they show up drunk, then you can say "stop drinking or I'll need to fire you." If they start doing substandard work...or show up tired, mentally not there...then you can say "I need you to come to work rested and able to do your job. Otherwise I might need to let you go."

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


Return to posts index

Todd TerryRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 17, 2014 at 5:54:35 pm
Last Edited By Todd Terry on Feb 17, 2014 at 5:56:05 pm

I follow what seems to be the general consensus here, which is that side gigs are okay... as long as they aren't competition.

The fellow who is on staff as our full-time Senior Editor came to us that way. He was a freelancer, doing most of his work for another production company in town (the only one that we really consider competition, and not even very much at that).

That other company was keeping him busy pretty much full time and had been doing so for months and months... but as a freelancer. He'd begged to be put on as real staff there, but they didn't want to do that. So, he jumped ship and came here. I understand that we were cursed fairly heavily in the other shop at the time for hiring him away... which made me feel a little bad because the other shop is run by someone I respect and am very friendly with in the business. But hey, they wouldn't hire him, so I did.

Our only mandate to him before he took the job was that after he joined our staff he could no longer freelance at that other company... and he was fine with that. We have a lot of little production techniques and "tricks" which although aren't exactly proprietary, are sort of our signature way of doing things... and we didn't want those things to make their way to a competing production house.

And as I said, he was fine with that. If he hadn't been, we couldn't and wouldn't have hired him.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



Return to posts index

Mads Nybo JørgensenRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 17, 2014 at 7:55:16 pm

Hey Andrew,

Interesting comments, although I think that Shane nailed it better in his follow on post to yours. But here is my observation on your post:

Family is not work - unless the person in question have got their priorities wrong and think that it is.

The point of having a full-time job is exactly just that; it is a full-time job. Strictly speaking there are no way's, if's and but's about that description. So a full-time employee should not treat any full-time employer as part time employment.

Some countries out there, in particularly in Europe, have a very short working week of 35-37.5 working hours. And yes, in such circumstances there might be more "space" than in other places for hobby activities outside of full-time employment. And if that includes editing pet-projects then I've got no problem with that. The same goes for family life, collecting stamps, walking the dogs, playing ping-pong or building LEGO.

However, in the time that an employee is at their full-time job, one would expect them to give it their best, and not having "dumped" all their creativity on a late night video project that they find more inspiring, but won't pay their mortgage...

[Andrew Kimery] " If someone is cutting the same type of content day in and day out" And if they are tired of doing that (burned out), then it is their responsibility to themselves and their families to change into a more rewarding job. But do not blame the boredom on the company that pays the bills, when there are a long list of CV's in the filing cabinet ready to fill that hole.

Just an alternative opinion :-)

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
http://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk


Return to posts index

Andrew KimeryRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 17, 2014 at 9:11:29 pm

[Mads Nybo Jørgensen] "Family is not work - unless the person in question have got their priorities wrong and think that it is."

Hello Mads,

I agree that family isn't work and I was trying to be tongue-in-cheek hence the smiley face while I was talking about family.

My overall point is this, if employees are meeting or exceeding expectations at their day jobs what does it matter if they go home to hang with their family, collect stamps, play video games or edit other (competing) projects?

Conversely, if employees aren't meeting expectations at their day job does it matter why? Is it okay for Bob to underperform at work because he's staying up late playing video games but it's not okay for Steve to underperform at work because he's staying up late working on a pet project? Or does it just matter that they are underperforming and, regardless of the reason, it needs to be corrected?


[Mads Nybo Jørgensen] "And if they are tired of doing that (burned out), then it is their responsibility to themselves and their families to change into a more rewarding job. "

In my experience (and this is probably because Los Angeles is such a competitive market place) you can't get work without prior experience and you can't get prior experience without work. Side gigs (usually no or low paying affairs) are the only way to get the experience you need to get the more rewarding jobs you want.


Return to posts index

Mark SuszkoRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 18, 2014 at 3:11:39 pm

Mads:

Responding to your remark about "creativity": I don't see it as a finite resource that gets depleted by outside application. Rather the opposite: it's more like a muscle, that gets better the more often and varied manner in which you work it. There's a saying about knowledge, - sometimes ascribed to The Buddha - that applies as well to creativity: "the candle flame is not diminished by igniting more candles - it just spreads the light more" (or some variation of this idea)

The more creative endeavors your workers have on the side, the more creativity they bring to their work for you. Your bigger worry is that you're not challenging their abilities enough on a consistent basis, that they are getting bored of working for you and doing the same thing every day. Spending a little on training and even some spec work projects or entries into contests, can have a great morale-boosting effect on your team.


Return to posts index

Mads Nybo JørgensenRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 18, 2014 at 7:13:18 pm

Mark,

I agree with all of your comments - but this thread has turned into the editing-suite equivalent of the boardroom bingo game. Let's all shout "BINGO!" each time we get a right word such as creative, new, thinking, fun, right etc...

However, not to spoil the excitement; Rich's original issue was "As an employer I am more traditional and appreciate loyalty to the goals of the company and its team. But the young guys might have been editing and creating animations for several years and may even have a small side business already set up as they seek full time employment."

Responding to that, I say that an employee can only have one full-time job.

The splitting of that cake goes both ways: You cannot have a full-time job and then demand to be able to do paid work outside of that job. Likewise, you cannot have a happy employee if you don't motivate the person with possibilities of doing more and better work.

The point is, that if you have multiple pay-masters then you are no longer in full-time employment. And depending on your job, if the outside personal jobs, family, life etc have a negative impact on being able to concentrate on the job. Then you might even put you own, and your colleagues health at risk. Not to mention the business of your employer.

By all means, one should take inspiration to do better from any parts of life - but when it comes down to the job market, most of what is on offer is about being a good crafts person and knowing your tools and how to use them. And not about re-inventing the wheel into a different shape every minute of the day. And yes, even crafts people have to continuously train and gain new skills - that part is for most employers a tax deductible expense, where as moon-lighting could become a competitive loss and/or increase of insurance.

As an employer, just be careful as to what you encourage your full-time employees to do outside of work, opposed to managing what you find agreeable without taking the cost or responsibility. Because once the genie (multi-jobbing employee) is out of the bottle, you'll find it difficult to put it back in. Not to mention any other employee who wants equal rights...

My 5p ;-)

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
http://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk


Return to posts index

Andrew KimeryRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 18, 2014 at 8:08:29 pm

[Mads Nybo Jørgensen] "Responding to that, I say that an employee can only have one full-time job. "

But we are talking about people doing other projects on the side, i.e. not a second full time job.

I keep asking this question but no one has responded to it yet, if the employee is meeting or exceeding the expectations of their employer what is the problem? If the employee is *not* meeting the expectations of their employer does it matter if the low performance is related to a stamp collecting hobby instead of side projects?


Return to posts index

Mads Nybo JørgensenRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 18, 2014 at 8:47:16 pm

[Andrew Kimery] "I keep asking this question but no one has responded to it yet, if the employee is meeting or exceeding the expectations of their employer what is the problem? If the employee is *not* meeting the expectations of their employer does it matter if the low performance is related to a stamp collecting hobby instead of side projects?"

That my friend, is up to the individual employer to answer. However, it is easier to dismiss someone who are having a paid job on the side, rather than a hobby, such as stamp collecting or even making videos.

There are no such thing as having a 100% job and working 125% ;-)

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
http://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk


Return to posts index

Shane RossRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 18, 2014 at 9:07:13 pm

[Mads Nybo Jørgensen] "
That my friend, is up to the individual employer to answer. However, it is easier to dismiss someone who are having a paid job on the side, rather than a hobby, such as stamp collecting or even making videos."


That begs to question...on what grounds to you have to dismiss the employee who has a part time job on the side? Small side gig that doesn't interfere with their day job? That opens you to litigation...firing without good cause.

Again, if someone is performing their job well, isn't tired, isn't distracted...doing a good job...why does it matter WHAT they are doing outside of work? How does working a side job interfere? Is it fear that they might be poached away? Fear that they are somehow taking work away from you by working directly with a client, rather than that client hire them through your company? Fear of competition?

As stated, I do lots of side jobs. Mainly online and color work, while during the day I edit. I'm very loyal to the company that employs me full time as they pay well and keep me consistently busy. They treat me very well. But I still enjoy my side work. And I do it for clients that I've had working relationships with previously, who only use my services maybe 3 times a year, a week at a time. And the work isn't in competition with my day job...my day job doesn't involve online, they go elsewhere for that.

But what if I worked at McDonald's at night? Or was a pizza delivery guy? Or club DJ? I put in a full day, did a good job, but had this side job...would you have grounds to fire me? Why?

What is it about the side gig that bothers you, specifically? Is it the fact that some people might perform the same services your company offers...say editing...but are doing it at a cheaper rate, therefore undercutting your company? There are many MANY clients who cannot afford to go directly to production companies for work...they hire freelancers at lower rates to cut from their home (low overhead), because they don't have the budget to do it the regular way.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


Return to posts index

Mads Nybo JørgensenRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 18, 2014 at 9:23:08 pm

Hey Shane,

I think you need to read my post again before getting your knickers twisted.

It is up to the individual employer as how they deal with out-of-work work by employees. As some employers in this thread have already mentioned, they won't allow their employees to work for old clients (competitors).

About the legaleese: Depending on what country you are in, the laws are different. And HR departments are all over the world a real pain to deal with when it comes to the rights of employees and employers.

Bottom-line is, that if you are a new employee joining a firm in a full-time position, don't automatically assume that you carry out paid work on the side. Likewise, if you are, as the original post suggested, an employer taking on a new full-time employee, don't automatically assume that you need to let them keep all of their old side-jobs. As I'm sure you'll agree, there are plenty of posts here opposing my black & white description of the proposition.

All the Best
Mads

@madsvid, London, UK
Check out my other hangouts:
Twitter: @madsvid
http://mads-thinkingoutloud.blogspot.co.uk


Return to posts index

Shane RossRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 18, 2014 at 9:34:30 pm

You're right...you weren't being combative, but expressing the concerns that companies might have. I misread...pardon me.

I can see the point of editing projects on the side being in possible competition with the company one is working at...and that such work might undermine/undercut the company because that client isn't hiring them...

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


Return to posts index

Mark SuszkoRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 18, 2014 at 11:35:25 pm
Last Edited By Mark Suszko on Feb 18, 2014 at 11:36:00 pm

The larger issue is do you live to work, or work to live? When I was young, companies and workers still had something called the social contract: I give you my all, day in and day out, for years and years, and you give me a nice retirement at the end of 20 years. That all started going away in the 80's and today, many would consider you a fool to expect any loyalty from an employer, and vice-versa, seems employers are in the news every day for pushing the boundaries of worker abuse, never mind the nice retirement. It used to be a source of shame that you job-hopped every 2-3 years, and now HR people look at a long-time spent at one company and wonder if you're just a slacker without ambition.

The kids coming out of school today can expect to work in five different CAREERS in the course of their working lives. Not just jobs, but entire careers, with the attendant re-training.

The expectation that they would all act like devoted Japanese salarymen is alien to them.

My dad worked over 20 years for his best employer, paid off a mortgage and sent three kids thru school. Then he started on building his retirement nest egg. The next four companies he worked for, and these were big outfits, each kept him on-board just to within days of his being fully vested, then they'd dump him without benefits or any retirement or medical. He was the most senior guy on each staff, the expert in his field... but in HR terms, they didn't want to keep him on and risk any liability for benefits. He had a stroke or heart attack one saturday morning at the last office, at his desk, working weekend overtime, and nobody found him for a couple hours. I consider myself a dedicated worker, but I don't intend on going out that way. There are boundaries.

Work is not life, but you can, if you're lucky, work at something that enhances and complements your life. I hit the jackpot in finding a job that is more like play than work, doing for pay what I would just as soon do just for fun. But my work is not my job. My job is to be a good husband and father. My work enables me to do that job. Whatever else I do on the side, I do to supplement the money made from work, or to satisfy some itch that the work doesn't scratch. But the work does not define who I am. Some people live their whole lives and don't ever get that.


Return to posts index

Andrew KimeryRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 20, 2014 at 10:38:27 am

Great post as usual, Mark.

[Mark Suszko] " It used to be a source of shame that you job-hopped every 2-3 years, and now HR people look at a long-time spent at one company and wonder if you're just a slacker without ambition."

That was one thing that I picked up on pretty quickly when I moved to LA is that if you stayed at one place too long people might start thinking you were damaged goods and that's why no one else would hire you. The longest I've worked at one place is five years that was probably 2 years too long. I only lasted that long because of my side gigs. Ha. I really can't see myself working more than a 2-3 years max at single place again which I guess is why freelancing seems to suit me better. Even an 8-12 month gig gives me a little trepidation that I'm painting myself into a corner.


Return to posts index

Andrew KimeryRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 18, 2014 at 9:28:39 pm
Last Edited By Andrew Kimery on Feb 18, 2014 at 9:30:37 pm

[Mads Nybo Jørgensen] "That my friend, is up to the individual employer to answer. However, it is easier to dismiss someone who are having a paid job on the side, rather than a hobby, such as stamp collecting or even making videos.

So, all other things being equal, having an employee that meets or exceeds expectations but does non-competing side work is worse than having an employee that underperforms but does not do any side work?


[Mads Nybo Jørgensen] There are no such thing as having a 100% job and working 125% ;-)"

Sure there is. My employer gets 100% of my focus and attention when I'm on their dime. What happens outside of those work hours is my time and my life. :)


Return to posts index

Spencer SyRe: For all you employers out there
by on Feb 21, 2014 at 6:21:33 pm

Hello. I think a high percentage of creative people have their own side gigs for various reasons. I know any employer would be worried on his staff having side gigs that may affect performance and fatigue from the staff. My work involves managing a team of graphic designers and screening new designer job applicants. Almost all of the designers I've worked with have their side/freelance jobs. Part of my responsibility is to ensure the design team completes the tasks on time and I sometimes have to deal with absences or tardiness. So I can understand the point of view of an employer or business owners. Some of my school mates are now employers and sometimes they talk about similar problems.

I also do my own side gigs for reasons of covering monthly expenses for my kids as nowadays, 2 jobs are needed to make ends meet. Second, the side gig is my backup in cases of unexpected job layoffs due to global economic slump. However, i avoid side gigs that directly compete with my employer's line of business and I strictly do the side gigs at my home using my own resources. And I also note that my performance does not go down. My boss permits me to do side gigs using his computers and other resources but I always made it my practice to do the side gigs at my place. This is also to protect the confidentiality of the projects and files misplacement. Also, if my officemates see me doing the side gigs at the office, this may be a negative precedent. I think you can't go wrong if you do things at the right place and time. :)

Graphic Designer Illustrator
http://www.spencersy.com/


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]