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Does anyone pay?

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Roy SchneiderDoes anyone pay?
by on Jan 28, 2013 at 3:41:00 pm

Hi All:
I just got out of my 3rd meeting this month with a client that wants Production Work without paying. 2 wanted to Barter, and one wants to shoot a pilot on spec, but does not want to give anything on the backside either. His proposal was... shoot the pilot, and if it is picked up we will pay you for the service you have already provided.

Does anyone just pay for service anymore.

Sorry for the rant.
Long Live The Cow!
Roy

Roy Schneider
Long Live Da Cow!


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Mark SuszkoRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 28, 2013 at 4:05:32 pm

Hang tough, brother; it is the only way they will eventually come up to your price.

Look at it this way: those kinds of deals will destroy anybody that agrees to take them. You should point these kinds of "clients" towards your worst business rivals. :-)


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David EaksRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:12:18 pm

Counter offer-

Shoot the pilot at double your rate, if it is not picked up, refund 50%.

The compromise instead of the counter offer? Your normal rate and no "if this, then that" crap :)

Maybe they'll realize that people don't like getting screwed... But probly not.


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Mark SuszkoRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:20:01 pm

You got me curious about the barter, because I have done work for "trade-outs" before. However, the value of the trade was pretty close to the same as charging them cash. I mainly did that as a favor to a client that was a personal acquaintance.

What's the most bizarre trade for editing services anybody's ever done, I wonder?


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Todd TerryRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 28, 2013 at 6:03:02 pm

[Mark Suszko] "What's the most bizarre trade for editing services anybody's ever done, I wonder?"

Here we've rarely done any barter, but have a few times...

I'd say the most unusual here was surgery.

Both my art director and my general manager got free Lasik surgery from one of our ophthalmology surgeon clients, in exchange for commercial production.

It was a good deal on both ends, they got about $10,000 worth of surgery and both went from blind-as-bats to 20/20, and he got about $12,000 worth of commercial production. We gave away everything that didn't cost us hard cash... it was several years ago but I think he paid for talent and filmstock/lab.

That turned out to be a good marriage. Not only has he done tons of paid business with us since then, but our employees' peepers turned out so successfully they they have referred scads of patients to him.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Nick GriffinRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 28, 2013 at 10:53:55 pm

[Mark Suszko] "What's the most bizarre trade for editing services anybody's ever done?"

Many, many, MANY years ago we had a car dealer as a client and the barter was our services (NOT talent and expenses) in exchange for the use of 3 new cars: A top-end sedan, a mid-range sedan and a low-end station wagon. Guess which one I drove? And it wasn't just the cars. It included insurance, maintenance, car washes, even gas. The cars were dealership "demos" so we kept getting new ones every 5,000 miles or so. Of course this was a very under-the-table kind of deal, which I was young and dumb enough at the time to not realize was, even way back then, playing with fire.

[Ned Miller] "Careful what you post about barter. The IRS could be lurking..."

And that's why I'm making it clear this was many, many, many years ago. Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan were Presidents. The one and only barter deal that I had as recently as 2002 was declared and the appropriate taxes paid -- the way it's SUPPOSED to be done. The IRS doesn't screw around and I've known people whose lives were made a living hell because they played fast and loose with taxes.

As to legitimate barter deals, ratios given by the weaker of the sides are quite common. In other words they give you $2 or $3 of their goods or services for every $1 of your service -- if they want what you're offering bad enough.

And an interesting side story: the car dealer who first introduced me to his own variety of barter deals started by offering the local radio and TV stations use of his gas pumps in exchange for their airtime so he could advertise his dealerships. I believe the worst of his deals at the time was 3 to 1 in his favor. The best 8 to 1.

In the mid-eighties he realized that he was much better at setting up barter deals with TV and radio stations than he was as a car dealer, so he created a network that provided traffic reports for the stations in exchange for airtime which he then bundled and sold to national advertisers. His network expanded to most major US cities, then got into bartering weather reports and brief newscasts for radio stations. He expanded it into Europe and a few major markets in Asia. When it was sold in the early to mid 2000s his majority interest stake paid something in the range of a half a billion (yes, with a "b") dollars. Me? I'm still making ads and videos.


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Bill DewaldRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 28, 2013 at 11:20:37 pm

Amazing story. Here I am, sitting in an edit bay, working on "Barter Kings".

Wednesdays on A&E :)


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Kylee PeñaRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 2:44:26 pm

[Mark Suszko] "What's the most bizarre trade for editing services anybody's ever done, I wonder?"

I've been offered drugs (legal and illegal), numerology and palm reading, a healing touch session, drugs again, and admission to a club.

For the record, I did accept the palm reading.

blog: kyleesportfolio.com/blog
twitter: @kyl33t
demo: kyleewall.com


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Tim WilsonRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 3:09:58 pm

I get every one of those except LEGAL drugs. What legal drugs would they think would entice you to edit for free? Oxy? Proactiv? Or was it quantity, like an entire tractor trailer of Chewable Flintstones?

Tim Wilson
Vice President, Editor-in-Chief
Creative COW



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Kylee PeñaRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 5:17:00 pm

I meant controlled substances that (I believe) were obtained legally. Vicodin and Percocet. You know, the good stuff.

No thanks, I don't want your sweaty old hydrocodone pill you stole from your grandma's medicine cabinet that may be a roofie instead.

blog: kyleesportfolio.com/blog
twitter: @kyl33t
demo: kyleewall.com


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Tim WilsonRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 5:28:05 pm

[Kylee Wall] "No thanks, I don't want your sweaty old hydrocodone pill you stole from your grandma's medicine cabinet that may be a roofie instead."

If they were bartering "do this edit for me and I'll put this pill in your drink," yeah, you should probably skip that one.


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Kylee PeñaRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 6:20:02 pm

[Tim Wilson] "If they were bartering "do this edit for me and I'll put this pill in your drink," yeah, you should probably skip that one."

Where would I be without the sage advice found in this forum?

blog: kyleesportfolio.com/blog
twitter: @kyl33t
demo: kyleewall.com


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Mark SuszkoRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 30, 2013 at 6:22:09 pm

OTOH, it might explain projects like this one...







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Simon RoughanRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 10:03:27 am

That is without a doubt one of the coolest, best produced you tube videos I have ever seen!
BRAVO!!!!
That someone puts such time, effort, creativity and humor into a project that has no commercial potential is amazing. Again, BRAVO!!! (with standing ovation!)

A picture is only as good as the glass it comes through. And the person using the camera has something to do with it too.


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Todd TerryRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 28, 2013 at 5:16:52 pm

[Roy Schneider] " ...wants to shoot a pilot on spec, but does not want to give anything on the backside either...if it is picked up we will pay you for the service you have already provided. "


Well, two questions...

1) Why would anyone ever have the balls to offer that deal?

2) Why would anyone ever consider taking that deal?


Your only response should be a hearty laugh as you turn to walk away.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com



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Ned MillerRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 28, 2013 at 9:34:30 pm

Careful what you post about barter. The IRS could be lurking...

Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com
www,bizvideo.com


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Nick GriffinRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 28, 2013 at 11:05:23 pm

We had a start-up approach us with a "deal" wherein if we took them on as a client, AND they were to succeed, then they would pay our regular rates retroactively. My counter offer was in exchange for assuming the risk they would pay expenses in advance and THREE times our normal fees when certain levels of sales were achieved. They balked and I didn't pursue further discussions.

Sometimes it's best to know which "deals" to just walk away from.


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Scott SheriffRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 29, 2013 at 2:17:22 am

[Roy Schneider] "Hi All:
I just got out of my 3rd meeting this month with a client that wants Production Work without paying. 2 wanted to Barter, and one wants to shoot a pilot on spec, but does not want to give anything on the backside either. His proposal was... shoot the pilot, and if it is picked up we will pay you for the service you have already provided.

Does anyone just pay for service anymore."


Short answer, no.

You have hit the crux of the problem. There are more of these 'future work' guys, than there are real clients. And this is being driven by the millions that will do it for nothing, and this guy knows it. Even if this guy has to go through 6 more production companies until someone bites, he's still money ahead.

If this was a reality show, I'd call it "A Grinder is Born"

Scott Sheriff
SST Digital Media
Multi-Camera Director, VFX and Post Production

The Affordable Camera Dolly is your just right solution!


"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." ---Red Adair


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Shane RossRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 29, 2013 at 3:44:49 am

Pilot for a TV show? IF they want decent people, they'd better pay. Otherwise the only people they'll get are people who need it for their reel. Need it for "credit" to make their resumes look better.

People's passion projects...short films...documentaries. Sure, you might get other people to pitch in to help...who believe in the project and want to see it made. But a TV show pitch? No, you'd better pay. About 10% of the pilots made ever get picked up...not good odds for ever seeing the money on that. Besides, most if not all of those are paid for by the network. Some production companies have "development departments" with budgets...money taken from other projects in order to pay for pitch reels or pilots to hunt down future work. Smart companies do that, and get good talent, to make the project they are pitching look good. People who spec pilots get sub par talent, and chances are they won't get picked up.

Production services for free? Like a corporate video or commercial? Training video? Never. Laughable. Barter? Sure...I've done that. Trade in services or in equipment. Win/win....if you both need what the other is offering.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Ned MillerRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 29, 2013 at 11:30:42 pm

In 1993 I was asked by an up and coming documentarian if I wanted to go into the hood and film in the housing projects every weekend for the next year, no money but they hoped it would amount to something. Shoot some basketball games too. I thought about it for one second and said, "No."

The project turned out to be Hoop Dreams.

Ned Miller
Chicago Videographer
http://www.nedmiller.com
www,bizvideo.com


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Patrick OrtmanRe: Does anyone pay?
by on Jan 31, 2013 at 1:41:38 am

I had a small nonprofit client who asked me to help them out with a change to one of their projects, as they had no cash-flow for a couple months. I did it mostly out of the goodness of my heart. Found a package on the front doorstep to the building the next day. Brownies! Score!

I shoot people.
http://www.patrickortman.com


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