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johnsabbath d'urzoteacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 5:37:11 am

Hey, I find that a lot of video editors and photographers are going into the teaching profession in high school here in Canada. I know 4 good friends that did this within the year. Does this mean wimping out of the freelance world. What do you guys think about teaching would you leave the industry to teach high school?


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Mads Nybo JørgensenRe: teacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 7:11:42 am

That is a difficult one. Often it is easy to say that "if you can't make it in the business, go teach". However, I too have several very talented friends that has gone into the media teaching profession, and as much as they IMHO are turning out students of which many will never get a job in the industry, those old colleagues of mine would never have been able to get a mortgage, afford the babies etc without taking that full-time job.

So it is really in part a question of personal priorities, but also very much about whether the industry that we work in offers any real prospects of a decent living standard for anyone wanting to make a career out of it? And that is the bigger Question?



All the Best
Mads
London, UK

Latest video to watch here:


Mac Million Ltd. - HD Production & Editing
Blog: http://macmillionltd.blogspot.com


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johnsabbath d'urzoRe: teacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 1:35:14 pm

I am thinking about this myself, it seams that there are a lot of grinders out there. in my area there are post production houses paying the same rate as they did 10 years ago and if you don't want it they would find someone to fill the position. i have been at some high schools and they are learning what I did in college 10 years ago. So just wondering what this industry has to offer in the future if it's going to be taken over by kids and the people who have lots of experience would be out of work because the rate would be to high.



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Nick GriffinRe: teacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 4:04:16 pm

[Mads Nybo Jørgensen] "the media teaching profession, and as much as they IMHO are turning out students of which many will never get a job in the industry"

This has long been a pet peeve of mine, going back to many of the advertising schools which sprang up in the 1980's. And not that the larger colleges and universities are, from a moral standard, much different.

Well sure if you're 18 to 22 years old training to work in television or in a recording studio or in an ad agency sounds like a lot more fun than getting a "real" job. But how much sense does it make for institutions to churn out eight or nine or ten people for every one or two actual jobs which will be available? What possible justification is there for this? Hence my use of the word "moral."

Yes, yes. Some people do get jobs and there are no doubt some quite successful individuals who took this path. It's likely that some of them are here on the COW. But for every one who is working how many are there with an expensive degree or certificate in our glamorous profession who are working behind the counter at the corner convenience store?


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walter biscardiRe: teacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 4:10:29 pm

[Nick Griffin] "Yes, yes. Some people do get jobs and there are no doubt some quite successful individuals who took this path. It's likely that some of them are here on the COW. But for every one who is working how many are there with an expensive degree or certificate in our glamorous profession who are working behind the counter at the corner convenience store?"

That statement pretty much cuts across all industries, all jobs, quite honestly. Especially if you look at today's economy. Thousands, maybe millions, of highly educated people have a job (or maybe don't even have a job) that's not even remotely associated with their college degree.

So I don't think there's any sort of a "moral" code to follow with the universities and colleges. If someone wants to learn to edit video, design a nuclear power plant, plan a community, and there's space in the class, you take it. What you learn in a particular field of study will almost always be useful in another field or profession.

Having a job in your profession takes drive, skill and a whole lot of luck today.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

Creative Cow Forum Host:
Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital.

Blog!

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Nick GriffinRe: teacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 4:33:41 pm

Well said, Walter. But I'm not diminishing the college experience. I guess my ire is more directed at the for-profit "institutes" which seem to know more about the ins and outs of helping kids obtain the loan needed for their tuition than they do about the realities of the jobs their dangling as the reward.

As to the college and university level courses, well the popular ones always do tend to fill up fast. Hopefully an education in Radio-TV will have some applicability for those who never work in either and, with the growth of the net, perhaps they'll end up in a job where the skill set and knowledge can be used.


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Ron LindeboomRe: teacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 7:05:32 pm

[walter biscardi] "Thousands, maybe millions, of highly educated people have a job (or maybe don't even have a job) that's not even remotely associated with their college degree."

Most of the people I know have jobs and careers that are completely unrelated to the degree that they earned at school. Obviously, careers like medicine, law, etc., are *usually* not included in this phenomenon.

I have always chalked this up to careers being planned by young people who think they know what they want to do and be, but aren't always aware that the world is changing fast and most of the jobs being offered today were not being taught in school not that long ago.

I remember reading somewhere that people who are in school now are going to face a world in which most of the jobs that will face them in their lifetime, are not even part of any current curriculum.

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom
CEO, CreativeCOW.net

Creativity is a type of learning process where the teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint Exupéry


First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Gandhi


Better is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with the poor spirits who neither enjoy much, nor suffer much because they live in a gray twilight that knows no victory or defeat. - Theodore Roosevelt





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Mads Nybo JørgensenRe: teacher
by on Feb 19, 2010 at 3:01:41 am

Hey Walter,

[walter biscardi] "Having a job in your profession takes drive, skill and a whole lot of luck today."

Actually repetition and persistence is in my opinion a bigger factor in succeeding - do something 10,000 times and you'll undoubtedly end up doing it very well.


All the Best
Mads
London, UK

Latest video to watch here:


Mac Million Ltd. - HD Production & Editing
Blog: http://macmillionltd.blogspot.com


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Ron LindeboomRe: teacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 7:29:42 pm

[Nick Griffin] "Well sure if you're 18 to 22 years old training to work in television or in a recording studio or in an ad agency sounds like a lot more fun than getting a "real" job. But how much sense does it make for institutions to churn out eight or nine or ten people for every one or two actual jobs which will be available? What possible justification is there for this? Hence my use of the word "moral.""


The saddest part in this sordid mess, are the ones whom the teachers will not politely tell them that "Your work is simply not going to get you a job. This is not your talent and the chances are that you will not have a chance in a market that already is far too glutted, anyway. But let's compare your sense of design, color, editing..." -- whatever they are doing -- "...with some of the current work in the market."

I see people in the COW who post work that is simply so void of talent and is so bad that when I tell them an honest critique, then all the bleeding hearts bemoan my meanness. I am not mean, I just think it is cruel to let someone spend their parents' money on an education that is going to do them almost no good because everyone was too worried about hurting little Johnnie's self-esteem.

I can't tell you the number of people over the last 15 years that I have seen on our forums who come in thinking that they just graduated and are going to build a career. They open a shop on Mom and Dad's money investment, which is in addition to M&D's investment in their education and degree, and a year or less later, you see the fire sale on gear for sale in the Classifieds forum.

It has always been a heartbreak to me. I hate to see it. But I always scratch my head in bewilderment at the pros here who are far more concerned with being politically correct than they are in being honest, when some honesty would go a long way in helping some of the Truly Talentless & Artistically Inept from entering an already horrifically over-saturated market.

And yes, I realize that art is subjective, but I also know that there are some videos that I have watched in this and other sites, that wouldn't have a .001% chance in hell of ever selling anything to anyone.

Kathlyn and I have a saying that we use when we see someone like this, and it goes: "Well, there's more of Mom and Dad's money wasted on having picked the wrong career."

If I were an instructor at college, I would spend the first day showing nothing but exemplary work and pointing out the nuances and little things that make it brilliant work. And I would purposely try to scare the hell of people who think this is going to be a cakewalk on easy street and that making videos is fun. Yeah, right...15 to 18 hour days under heavy deadlines and intense pressures is a ball!

For those who get 8 hour days: you are such a minority in this market that you are the truely brilliant and my hat is off to you.

For the rest: get back to work, and if you are lucky, get your intern to fetch you some lunch at your workstation.

The Increasing Pragmatist,

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom
CEO, CreativeCOW.net

Creativity is a type of learning process where the teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint Exupéry


First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Gandhi


Better is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with the poor spirits who neither enjoy much, nor suffer much because they live in a gray twilight that knows no victory or defeat. - Theodore Roosevelt





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Richard HerdRe: teacher
by on Feb 19, 2010 at 12:24:08 am

[Ron Lindeboom] "If I were an instructor at college, I would spend the first day showing nothing but exemplary work and pointing out the nuances and little things that make it brilliant work. And I would purposely try to scare the hell of people who think this is going to be a cakewalk on easy street and that making videos is fun. Yeah, right...15 to 18 hour days under heavy deadlines and intense pressures is a ball! "

That's exactly what Curran Engel did for me and many many other students at AAU, SF.


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Mads Nybo JørgensenRe: teacher
by on Feb 19, 2010 at 2:59:39 am

Hey Nick,

[Nick Griffin] "But for every one who is working how many are there with an expensive degree or certificate in our glamorous profession who are working behind the counter at the corner convenience store?"

True. I don't think that in the UK it is as difficult to get into universities and do Media as it would be to study to become a surgeon or a lawyer or in financials etc.

You've got two problems in the UK, one is that the universities, as much as they are heavily subsidized, they are also running a business relying on "customers". And it is very hard not to pass a media degree in comparison to some of the other studies. I've actually had one job interview where the applicant told me that he was no good at anything else, so media looked very attractive as a degree - which he passed.

The second is that we have a government that want to send 50% of the youth to university, so in the bigger scheme of things + it looks good for the "international standing statistics" to pass as many as possible out of universities, with a degree - even if that is in media.

The effect is that students coming out are actually offered (if any) a wage lower than that of a person working in a corner convenience store. And then only on a 6 month contract, or the employer would have to offer pension, maternity leave etc. So currently, if you want to break into media you need either an uncle working on the inside, or parents that are willing to fund you after your degree. Until you one day wake up and realize that you can't afford the mortgage, car, dog, kids, spouse and so forth - hence why you will have to end up where you started - teaching at the college or university in media studies... Unless you've found another calling.



All the Best
Mads
London, UK

Latest video to watch here:


Mac Million Ltd. - HD Production & Editing
Blog: http://macmillionltd.blogspot.com


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grinner hesterRe: teacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 2:38:11 pm

If I could pay bills by teaching, man I would. I love it. No deadlines, no stress.. just eager artists seeking freedom to create.
I teach a home school group video production and post. I enjoy every minute of it. My youngest son (now 9) teaches the class with me as he's been my lil sidekick freelancer all his life. He loves it and the older kids (12-16) really look up to him.
I had an opportunity to teach at the college level after designing a program in NC. I dang near did it. Again, if teachers got paid what they are worth, you could count me in.
That's a big part of what's wrong with our society. We'll pay high salaries for bad jobs but put our educators and law enforcement at less than those guy's butlers salaries.
crazy.




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johnsabbath d'urzoRe: teacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 3:17:47 pm

in Canada, teachers start off at about 40-50k per year. Then you would have to take 4 courses, one per year and then over the about 6-8 years your pay goes to 90k per year, plus benefits and retirement plan at about 50k per year. man this sounds good to me anyway, The scary thing, I don't know what our industry has to offer over the next few years, it's getting really hard to plan a life doing it full-time.



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grinner hesterRe: teacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 7:02:06 pm

Yes, that would be nice.
We are not Canada. While we lowball educators then pretend we don't know why education suffers and our healthcare system doesn't care much about health, brother we have some dang fine burgers and meskin food here.





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Shane RossRe: teacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 6:22:19 pm

[grinner hester] "No deadlines, no stress.."

HA! Guess you don't know much about the teaching world. There are deadlines, and you have to grade papers and prepare tests. There are deadlines, and a lot of work gets taken home. Just DIFFERENT deadlines and stress.

(My mom's a professor...)

I myself am working, and will be teaching soon. An extension course from a community college. Part of a set of classes we are calling THE REALITY OF REALITY (and DOCUMENTARY) TELEVISION. From producing to shooting to editing. Intensive week long or few day long courses in what the jobs in production REALLY entail. Teachers who ARE professionals.

My college, Montana State University, actually required that the professors be working professionals. So that they were clued in and up to date with real life practices. They were required to produce at least one project a year, or work in a capacity that they are teaching (cinemagraphy, editing, audio mixing) at least once a year. Most did more than one. And they had to figure out outside financing!


Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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grinner hesterRe: teacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 6:59:34 pm

Papers? Man I don't grade papers. There is none involved. Maybe we teach different ways. I teach video. My students turn in videos. I watch them. We discuss. They learn more. I've never killed a single tree in this process.



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johnsabbath d'urzoRe: teacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 7:10:41 pm

Been speaking to 5 com-tech teachers in my area. 1 says he does 85 hours a week, the others say when they finish all the lesson plans for the first semester they use the same lessons for the new batch of kids for the second or maybe modify a bit. Most of the work is hands on during class time. They shoot, edit, photoshop, storyboard....and so on, during class or the at home. The teacher passes around a hard drive and then looks and grades them on the finish product. I think there maybe a lot to take home at the beginning then after you do this for a while it sounds like it gets easier. I don't know that's what I hear.
I just don't see 85 hours a week, i see maybe 50-60 or so if your involved in extra stuff like yearbook and plays. Any of you guys considering teaching com-tech in high school?





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David Roth WeissRe: teacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 8:03:08 pm

[grinner hester] "Papers? Man I don't grade papers. There is none involved. I've never killed a single tree in this process. "

Can you imagine if buildings were built without blueprints?

Can you imagine building a jet fighter without CAD drawings?

How about making the Godfather, Citizen Kane, or even Up in the Air without a script?

I saw the new reality series, Romancing Cindy Margollis, on TV the other day Grinner, it's right up your alley. You should use it as a course guide for your students Grin. It's perfect for you, because by not using paper you're teaching them not think.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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grinner hesterRe: teacher
by on Feb 19, 2010 at 3:01:49 am

Exactly. They are there to learn video techniques, not restrictions.
The programs I have designed for colleges have course requirements and curriculum outlines, but this is much different. These kids are all on different levels. Some cloud over as I cover waveform monitoring and some lean in but they all put the hands on the scope and tell me what's what instead of learning a test then discarding that info.
Such is home school. The learning of subjects... not tests.

I'll have to google the romancing cindy thing.



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Richard HerdRe: teacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 7:27:03 pm

Big important difference between:

-- teaching technique
&
-- being an artist

They've been teaching writing for quite some time, a couple millennia, but great works are still 1 in a bazillion.

Same thing with film and video. You might know what a noun phrase appositive is, but that in itself isn't writing. You might know how to operate FCP, but that in itself isn't editing.

Film and video has only been taught since when the late 1960s or so, about the time the phrase "copping out" was coined.

(My wife's a professor.)


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johnsabbath d'urzoRe: teacher
by on Feb 18, 2010 at 7:39:39 pm

what do you mean by this?

"Film and video has only been taught since when the late 1960s or so, about the time the phrase "copping out" was coined. "



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Richard HerdRe: teacher
by on Feb 19, 2010 at 12:18:23 am

It means: I guess I typed too fast and didn't get the timing on a (bad) joke very well. Trying to connect some nefarious dots. Sorry it wasn't too humorous, as I'd hoped. "Copping out" is a synonym for wimping out (what you said in your post).

The Film and video part, though, is an observation that teaching is an important thing, for the student, but it doesn't mean the student will be an artist.

More...I've found that when I teach a thing, I seem to get better at doing that thing.


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Steve KownackiRe: teacher
by on Feb 19, 2010 at 12:38:30 am

This thread it too... something. I've turned down 3 teaching offers because I asked if I could fire the kids who didn't really have the passion for it! They said no. I wasn't going to deal with slackers.



Steve



Jump to the FFP Website



View Steve Kownacki's profile on LinkedIn




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Bob ZelinRe: teacher
by on Feb 23, 2010 at 12:51:43 am

I have been thinking about this thread - and I have not responded out of 1) respect, and 2) I have not read all the responses, to make an accurate commentary.

With that said -
I just did a Google search on Bill Ferster.
Bill was the father of modern day Non Linear Editing with the EMC non linear editing system, NOT AVID (as was personally told to me by Eric Peters, co inventor of the AVID Media Composer). I knew Bill, and worked for him as a freelance tech, before I got involved with AVID Technologies (in the very early years of AVID). Bill is currenty employed by the University of Virginia teaching.

"Bill Ferster has had a 25 year history of developing innovative tools for the film and video industry. He is currently a senior scientist at the University of Virginia with a joint appointment with the Center for Technology and Teacher Education at the Curry School and the Virginia Center for Digital History at the College of Arts and Sciences. He has founded numerous companies including West End Film, developer of the first PC-based 3D animation system, EMC, developer of the first digital nonlinear editing system which received an EMMY Award in 1993, and StageTools, the leading developer of image animation tools."


To me, Bill Ferster is the equivalent of Robert Johnson (in the music world) of inventing Rock and Roll (well Dave Bargin invented computer editing) - but he is damn important. Bill Ferster should be in Las Vegas with 20 blonds, and countless millions, but alas, this is not the case. Life is cruel, and the true innovators of our industry do not necessarily reap the rewards. I only thought of this, because on some user forum (probably AVID-L), I remembered making some reference to a guy who "took over" the EMC non linear editing system as a Nazi, and he was from Belgium, and took great offense to my smart ass comments. Well, I cannot find a single reference to him, nor can I barely find reference to Bill Ferster, who is SO DAMN IMPORTANT to the history of our current industry (as is Jack Calaway and Dave Bargin), yet there is more easy reference to my name than any of these giants in the professional video business.

In summary, SCREW being a teacher - as Woody Allen said - "those that can do, those that can't teach".

Where is the justice in life ?

Bob Zelin





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Ron LindeboomRe: teacher
by on Feb 23, 2010 at 2:55:37 pm

We had an article about Bill Ferster slated to go into issue 2 of the Creative COW Magazine. Unfortunately, we couldn't get any photo images of Bill in time and so we scrapped the article, as it seemed odd to have an article about the guy who invented this technology and to run it without pictures of him.

Bill also invented the programs StageTools MovingPicture and StageTools MovingParts, which helped make him a living for a number of years.

Like you, Bob, I find it sad that people like Bill seem to disappear without hardly a trace in this industry.

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom
CEO, CreativeCOW.net

Creativity is a type of learning process where the teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint Exupéry


First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Gandhi


Better is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with the poor spirits who neither enjoy much, nor suffer much because they live in a gray twilight that knows no victory or defeat. - Theodore Roosevelt





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