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A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists

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David Roth Weiss
A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 4, 2010 at 8:07:38 pm

Dear Pessimists,

Tuesday I saw the future of TV, and whether you come along screaming and kicking, or come along willingly, you will come along, and your future is definitely going to be 3D TV. And, it's gonna be everywhere, period, end of story.

While attending a Matrox road show in beautiful downtown Burbank, CA, I was treated to my very first view of 3D TV, and it was not only good, it was flipping outstanding. The monitor was the newest $9000 JVC 42" 3D broadcast panel, being fed by JVC's new BluRay recorder/player, and the material was recorded in Real-D, and we all watched with Real-D glasses, which is, in the opinion of most, the absolute best 3D format presently.

The bottom line is, any of you pessimists who continue to doubt that the future is 3D TV, and who don't believe it's going to be everywhere soon, just go see something as fast as you can in Real-D on a JVC 3D monitor, and you will change your tune immediately.

And hey, don't argue that the technology is too expensive, because we all know that $9000 price tag for a broadcast monitor will drop substantially, and consumer sets will also soon cost no more than current 2D models.

Sincerely,
David (a 3D optimist)

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Mark Suszko
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 4, 2010 at 9:28:21 pm

Actually, I WANT the 3-d tech to stay expensive; it's one way to fend off the "bottom feeders" by keeping the financial and technical barriers to entry higher.

(only half joking)


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Jeremy Doyle
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 4, 2010 at 9:56:23 pm

After seeing Avatar, I agree that you are right. I just wish they could make it happen without glasses. I mean, I paid good money for lasik so I could get rid of them!



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Mark Suszko
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 4, 2010 at 10:00:48 pm

So invest in the 3-d contact lenses:-)


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Fernando Mol
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 4, 2010 at 10:02:26 pm

Greetings from Mexico.

Here we're still far from having a decent transition between SD to HD (in the final delivery, at least). So, I hope 3D TV gets here before the flying cars.

;)

*Always share a link to your site and rate the posts. This is a free service for you and for us.


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Nick Griffin
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 4, 2010 at 10:20:53 pm

[Jeremy Doyle] "After seeing Avatar, I agree that you are right."

My thinking exactly. Once they've seen the big city, how you gonna keep 'em down on the farm? 3D could turn out to be the jump start for Blu-Ray and its data capabilities that everyone's been waiting for. Sure the prices of everything will come down as adoption rates reach critical mass, but I won't be happy until I can get the 96" 3D screen.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 4, 2010 at 10:22:16 pm

[Jeremy Doyle] "I just wish they could make it happen without glasses. I mean, I paid good money for lasik so I could get rid of them!"

Don't fret Jeremy, the technology is already here, it's just too expensive to implement at present. This was discussed at the event I attended, and the guy from JVC told us that it's just a matter of time.



David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Steve Wargo
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 3:12:54 am

Well, there won't be any glasses. The technology is polorized imaging and all you'll have to do is hang a sheet of the plastic stuff from the ceiling between you and the $9000 set so you're looking through it no matter where you're at. That will eliminate the dumb glasses, for sure.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .

Ask me how to Market Yourself using Send Out Cards


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Herb Sevush
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 3:42:48 pm

Steve -

In order to see 3d imaging each eye has to look thru polarizers turned at 90 degrees to each other - so having both eyes looking thru the same sheet of polarizer just won't cut it. If it did, you could just put the polarizer on the monitor.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Steve Wargo
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 6, 2010 at 6:00:46 am

I apologize Herb. I thought my post was so ridiculous that it was obviously a joke. Next time I'll put a smiley face on the end or do this >> (This Post Was Meant to be Funny. Please Don't Take it Seriously)

By the way, this post was meant to be just a bit sarcastic.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .

Ask me how to Market Yourself using Send Out Cards


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Brendan Coots
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 4, 2010 at 10:31:51 pm

The one thing I fear in this big push towards 3D is that it isn't easy to do right and the "bad" implementations may turn people off to it altogether. It's really complicated to get good results. I attended a 3D seminar at Dolby Labs featuring a bunch of well regarded VFX sups and it really opened my eyes to just how tough it is to get it right.

All in all, HD adoption took a decade and still counting. I am hoping 3DTV doesn't take as long. I'm with you all around, this is some pretty cool stuff and very exciting for the future of media in general. I have a feeling that, short term, the internet will be the best venue for 3D simply because it sidesteps some of the tougher cost and tech hurdles in true 3DTV rollout, even if it is limited to the dreaded red&blues.



Brendan Coots

Splitvision Digital

http://www.splitvisiondigital.com


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Gav Bott
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 4, 2010 at 11:57:11 pm

Just a quick note for those of you that are experts on this:-

The amount of data streaming in a player for 3D, Blue Ray size and above only?

Thanks

Gav

The Brit in Brisbane
The Pomme in Production - Brisbane Australia.


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Craig Seeman
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 12:48:44 am

After you've invested in the 3DTV and all the 3D professional video cameras and post workflow over the next two years . . . the first holodeck "movie" will come out.

Things are moving so fast I think I'm going to rent my next home entertainment center. Anyone looking for a few good quadrophonic LPs? I also have a friend with a huge collection of LaserDiscs.

"In the future the ROI on video production gear purchases will be measured in minutes."
-anon



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Chris Blair
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 3:16:50 am

3D TV might look amazing, but who's going to be producing all these fantastic 3D programs? I doubt very many of the people that contribute on these forums will be doing it. Here in the midwest, we've had a grand total of ONE client come to us with a project and ASK for HD.

We've suggested it to a few clients on certain projects, but 99% of the projects we do are STILL in SD. In fact, out of half-dozen HD projects we've done, exactly ONE ended up being played back in HD. That's right, the others all ended up being played on good ole standard definition DVD.

I don't doubt 3D TV will make inroads...but for facilities producing local/regional television commercials, corporate video, web video etc....it will be a LONG time before the production technology becomes affordable for us, and it will be even longer before our clients ask for it.

Let's not forget that up until about a year or two ago, according to most accounts, something like 75% of ALL network programming (including cable networks) was STILL produced in SD. Ultra successful programs like Survivor only recently went to HD production.

My point isn't whether 3D TV will be successful, I'm sure it will be. My point is that it will only affect a small number of producers and production entities due to the cost of entry (both technical and in "know-how") and the HUGE lag that exists for small markets and corporate communications to adopt new technology. Small TV stations just finished spending a small fortune upgrading to HD. How eager do you think they'll be to spend ANOTHER small fortune to implement 3D TV?? When I worked at local affiliates, they'd keep a piece of equipment for DECADES! Yes...you read that right. If it could be repaired, it got fixed and was put back in service. I worked at a TV station from 1992-1994 that was STILL using typewriters to type news scripts. It had ONE computer in the entire building. They were STILL using 2" video decks up until 1995 and 1" video decks until 2005!

I wouldn't say I'm a pessimist when it comes to 3D TV. I'm a pragmatist. I just don't believe it will be a technology that will come near the type of work we do anytime in the next decade.

Let's also not forget the point made in this thread about the quality of it's use. Let Hollywood produce a dozen or so poorly executed, poorly written 3D bombs and let's see how enthusiastic the public is about it.

Remember when a Space Shuttle launch was a big deal? Now it only gets people interested when something goes terribly wrong! Yet it's still an inspiring event, especially in-person. The public tires quickly of technology driven events. If 3D TV programs don't have great stories and the 3D elements don't serve the story, people eventually won't watch. 3D in sports? Yeah..that could be cool...but again...how many people will that affect on these forums? Not many.

Chris Blair
Magnetic Image, Inc.
Evansville, IN
http://www.videomi.com


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Mike Cohen
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 3:50:44 am

[Chris Blair] "3D in sports? Yeah..that could be cool...but again...how many people will that affect on these forums? Not many."

Well, I think discussion of 3D tv in the home is like discussing the 1st generation iPad, HTML5 video streaming and questions why the adoption of brain implants for video playback has been so slow.

In other words, the tech industry loves talking up the next big thing, even if that next big thing is years away. Early adopters always pay a lot and have to wait for a big payoff.

Back in 1992 Cine-Med produced one of the first HD videos in the US. It was on a now defunct 1" HD tape format. It would be 15 years before we would touch an HD camera again, and by then it was a viable tool for makin' money.

Back in 1995 Cine-Med produced a 3D video - we had a specially made Zeiss lens adapted to a stereoscopic video endoscope - I think we managed to mount it to a tripod. The audience all needed to wear Crystal Eyes LCD glasses at $250/unit to see the result. Only now in 2010 are people actually talking about 3D being a viable tool for mainstream imaging.

We bought a CD-R burner around 1996 for something like $2500 - it took 30+ minutes to burn a CD. But we actually started selling CD-ROM products almost immediately - the market was asking for it.
The 3D and HD projects were contract jobs.

Shall I talk about our foray into virtual reality? I think you see my point.

It is fun learning about new technology, but like the DVD player, until your grandma has one attached to her Zenith, or until it costs the same as the current technology demanded by the market, or both, it is not yet mainstream!

But the outliers are having a blast no doubt.

I recently had an e-mail dialogue with a distant relative who is heavily involved in 3D - he believes it is the future of entertainment and that Avatar was the kick in the Navi that the industry needed.

Mike Cohen


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Zane Barker
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 6:10:20 am

http://www.ikonoskop.com/blog/a-cam3d/

Who going to get one?




Hindsight is always 1080p



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Mike Cohen
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 8:16:15 am

Looks like 3D may bring Kodak back to the front of the imaging industry:

http://www.camerapedia.org/wiki/Kodak_Stereo



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cowcowcowcowcow
Tim Wilson
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 2:33:03 pm

Coupla notes responding to various posts:

1) While DRW saw a state of the art presentation with an expensive monitor, there are already nearly 200 million 3D-capable sets out there, and have been purchased for perfectly reasonable prices.

How's this: 63" Mitsubishi, 1080p, 120 Hz, for $1399 at Best Buy. Hurry, you can still get yours delivered by Sunday, although these things are LIGHT - two people can easily get one in the back of a pickup or van.

The 2D picture on these things is staggering, and among scores of models that are 3D-ready. All of Mitsu's sets have been 3D ready for years...and again, there are already 200 million from many mfrs already in homes.


2) 3D home viewing has been around for quite some time for gamers. NVIDIA has a wonderful system with their own glasses. Far less expensive than Real-D, completely compelling (super-high refresh rates, as gamers demand), their games come with FOUR pairs of glasses (multi-person gaming has been huge for years), and those glasses come with multiple configurations, including a couple specially designed for people who already wear prescription glasses.

News flash: NVIDIA's market research indicated that gamers wear glasses at a much higher rate than the general public!



3) There will be people complaining about glasses for as long as there are glasses....but the audience is voting with every dollar: more and more of them are willing to spend more and more money on repeat viewings of higher-priced 3D offerings, glasses and all. This is absolutely NOT going to be an impediment to any meaningful part of the potentially paying audience.

To put it another way, producers can't hear your complaints about glasses because of all the noise from people banging on the door for more 3D screens, and all the noise from those bags of money falling from the sky, as so many people are watching so many movies...with glasses.

3a) Yes, plenty and plenty of research being done to get rid of glasses, but absolutely NO incentive to do it soon.

Don't forget that the one company to invest heavily in auto-stereoscopy was Philips, and had to drop it when they couldn't get anyone, including their own stockholders, excited about the current state of the art. It simply wasn't looking good enough. People would rather pay for better 3D with glasses than less persuasive 3D without glasses.

This is a business forum. Never forget: money talks.


3b) Which is why Armani is one of many design houses that has already announced designer 3D glasses - superior comfort, superior optics AND fashionable.


4) The first televised 3D experiences will not look good enough. They don't need to. It was decades before color TV looked better than nightmarish. Depending on your reception method and display, it took 3-5 years before HD looked genuinely higher D. And yet, sets sold on the PROMISE that it would look better. And it did.

Again, there are already 200 million 3D sets out there, but that's a fraction of overall TVs installed. There's a massive upside...


4a)...and sports will drive it, just as sports have driven TV sales for a long, long time. It used to be Milton Berle. Now, between games and football, John Madden may well be the new Mr. Television.


5) Poke around the Cow. People here ARE doing 3D, NOW. Many of them are in sports, many of them are in movies, many of them in DVD. This is part of our world NOW. 3D DVDs have been out for a while, made by some people who post here, and all that sports stuff - those people are at work NOW. There are crazy numbers of people here, many many thousands in fact, from ESPN, the NFL, NFL Films, the NFL Network, Discovery, Sony -- I mention these because they're coming online with 3D in less than six months.

Make no mistake. This is NOT a future story.

5a) Perhaps not so much in this forum, which is disproportionally owner/indie and video driven, but seriously, this stuff is in bunches of forums - AE, FCP, camera forums, the Stereoscopic forum, Nuke, etc etc. Some of it just curiosity, but some of it is from people who are doing it already.

If it's happening in this industry, it's happening in the Cow. Although, as I said, not necessarily in this forum.

No disrespect intended - that's just the nature of the conversation here, a focus more on MY business than THE business. A critical service that we are proud to provide better than anyone else in the industry, but it can skew some discussions about the industry as a whole.


6) What does "HERE" mean? Is 3D "here"? Yes, beyond doubt or debate. Unless YOU are someplace that it is not, in which case it is not here for YOU...but it's "here," even if it's far from ubiquitous. And when it was launched, there were just over 1 million HD sets already in homes.

1 million HD at launch vs. 200 million 3D at launch. Which adoption rate will be faster? Please. This isn't even an interesting race.

It will of course be "here" far earlier than it is "universal," just as was true for color, HD and indeed TV itself. But it all started somewhere, and work on the 3D for the home has been underway for years. It's only the wide-ish-scale deployment that begins in June.

Which is why thousands of Cows are already working on, and in, 3D.


Peace. Out.
Timmy




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Ron Lindeboom
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 3:01:32 pm

[Tim Wilson] "While DRW saw a state of the art presentation with an expensive monitor, there are already nearly 200 million 3D-capable sets out there, and have been purchased for perfectly reasonable prices."


I have grinned as I helped a number of friends of ours swap a cable or two on their set-ups, and pop in a disc and show them 3D working on their existing set.

Most common reaction?

"I didn't know it could do that. It didn't say so on the box."

We have a 42" flatscreen made by Polaroid that cost us about $1,500 a couple of years back. It works fine.

Is it as cool as seeing Real-D at the theater? Not even close. But for the cost of an HDMI cable between the TV and the player, not bad at all.

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom
CEO, CreativeCOW.net

Creativity is a type of learning process where the teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint Exupéry


First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Gandhi


Better is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with the poor spirits who neither enjoy much, nor suffer much because they live in a gray twilight that knows no victory or defeat. - Theodore Roosevelt





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David Roth Weiss
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 7:09:01 pm

[Ron Lindeboom] "We have a 42" flatscreen made by Polaroid that cost us about $1,500 a couple of years back. It works fine.

Is it as cool as seeing Real-D at the theater? Not even close. But for the cost of an HDMI cable between the TV and the player, not bad at all. "


Although I didn't see it, many here on this and other forums saw and have commented on the 3D commercial broadcast during last year's Superbowl. So, rudimentary 3D is capable without any technology other than a set of red and blue lens in cardboard frames. Great, that's cool for a quick thrill.

However, the point I was trying to make is that the technology at it's very highest level is so good that there will be no stopping it, and it will be implemented almost everywhere before you know it. And, it's no gimmick either, it's just a better way of viewing almost anything.

Ultimately, unlike HD, which many laypeople still don't really appreciate, I believe 3D is going to make it's way into our lives and our culture quite rapidly, because it is substantially different and substantially better. And, once you see it at it's very best, I think you will all agree.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Craig Seeman
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 7:38:19 pm

I've read that roughly 20% of the USA households replace their TVs in a given year. I don't know the accuracy of that number and I suspect households who bought HDTVs (roughly 50% give or take) aren't going to spend huge sums to replace them that quickly. Maybe not even at that 20% rate. This is compounded with the fundamental change in the USA economy which means people have less disposable income than they used to. Being great, wondrous, even desired does not ensure market penetration will be fast.

Of course if all it took was a $150 hardware add on to modify the TV, that could fly off the shelves for a 3D Super Bowl.

To put it another way, without a TV mod, 3D growth is only going to be a subset of that 20% of a given year and the size of subset may depend on a combination of price and the USA economy.

Sorry that I'm only mentioning USA here but thats the only numbers I've seen. I'm not sure what the impact 3D would have in TV purchases in the rest of the world.



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Tim Wilson
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 8:05:32 pm

[Craig Seeman] "3D growth is only going to be a subset of that 20% of a given year and the size of subset may depend on a combination of price and the USA economy."

Don't forget: there are approx. 200 million 3D-capable sets in people's homes right now. Compare to the 1 million+ HD sets available at the launch of that format!

(Or thereabouts, with rounding.)

So there doesn't need to be one single person buying one single new set for 3D programming to have a clear path to massive adoption. The displays are already in place.

Sorry to be repetitive about this, but the number of 3d-ready displays already in place *has* to be the starting place for any discussion about the format's deployment and viability.

I guarantee it was a huge part of the starting place that led the suits to believe that they could make more money than they spend to launch all-3D networks this summer.

There are issues related to 3D adoption. TV sets ain't one of 'em.


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Craig Seeman
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 8:19:26 pm

[Tim Wilson] "Don't forget: there are approx. 200 million 3D-capable sets in people's homes right now. Compare to the 1 million+ HD sets available at the launch of that format! "

And how does one know that number if they weren't marketed as such?
I keep hearing about 3D capable HDTVs "coming to market" implying that previously sold sets are not 3D capable.





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Ron Lindeboom
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 6, 2010 at 7:53:32 pm

[Craig Seeman] "And how does one know that number if they weren't marketed as such?
I keep hearing about 3D capable HDTVs "coming to market" implying that previously sold sets are not 3D capable."


There is no financial incentive to manufacturers to tell past customers that they have 3D already. They get paid on new TV sales, not on telling consumers about features they already possess but may not be aware of.

My 42" Polaroid flat-panel -- as well as my friend's just purchased 32" Phillips 1080-ready that we set up for him the other day -- did not mention 3D support as a feature.

Both play 3D nicely, thank you.

So, anyone that bought the 1080-based Polaroid with HDMI ports that we have, possesses a 3D-ready unit. Add to that, the 1080-based units with HDMI ports from Sony, Phillips, Panasonic, Sharp, Mitsubishi and a bunch of others. Add 'em all up, and you have your number.

That is probably what they are counting, Craig.

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom
CEO, CreativeCOW.net

Creativity is a type of learning process where the teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint Exupéry


First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Gandhi


Better is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with the poor spirits who neither enjoy much, nor suffer much because they live in a gray twilight that knows no victory or defeat. - Theodore Roosevelt





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Nick Griffin
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 8:20:59 pm

Do tell, Uncle Tim. What constitutes a 3D capable set. (And please tell me I already have one of them.)


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Craig Seeman
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 8:49:33 pm

I see nothing in any of the trades indicating 200 million 3D sets already in the market place.
Typically I see articles like this
http://www.thrfeed.com/2010/01/espn-launching-first-3d-television-network.h...

In a conference call, executives from the 3D venture partners cited Consumer Electronics Assn. estimates that about 2.2 million 3D TV sets will be sold this year, with more than 25% of sets sold being 3D-enabled by 2013.


and

To watch the content, viewers must have a 3D-ready TV set, and might need a new set-top box.


So they're looking at 3 years to hit 25% of sets sold being 3D enabled. I'm not quite sure if they mean total households at that point or only 25% of all sales by that year which would mean even a lower percentage of households total.

and there's this too
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/447442-HDMI_Tackles_3D_TV.php

The HDMI Consortium also plans to include multiple broadcast 3D formats in an upcoming specification, version 1.4a, to ensure that HD sets and set-tops can display networks' nascent 3D programming.


This indicates that a firmware upgrade to setup boxes can help though

Specifically, it decreed that set-tops with HDMI version 1.3 could receive a firmware upgrade that would enable them to connect to a new 3D set with HDMI version 1.4 to display a number of 3D HD broadcast formats. That is how satellite operators DirecTV and BSkyB plan to deliver 3D to their existing high-end set-tops.


That's the only thing I can think of that might cause someone to claim 200 million if they're all attached to set top boxes that can be upgraded.

All this looks to be "upcoming" and relating to newly manufactured TV sets.



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Chris Blair
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 11:19:48 pm

I have to side with Craig on this. Every single press release I've read while doing a quick Bing.com search implied that to watch the 3D programs that will be on ESPN 3D, Discovery and the other networks taking the plunge, you'd have to buy a new, 3D capable TV. There were even quotes from electronics industry CEO's and technical VPs about how soon they could ramp up production.

I couldn't find a thing about current televisions that were already capable of viewing the type of 3D that these networks are proposing to broadcast.

There must've been a two dozen different news articles, industry press releases and even a couple of "white papers" about the future of 3D, and all noted that it would require new television sets. There was no mention of firmware upgrades or adaptors or of any TV that's currently capable of receiving the 3D signal that they're proposing.

So I too would be interested in where this 200 million 3D capable TVs claim comes from. There are also articles about how expensive it is to do 3D production well, from all of these networks having to have 2 COMPLETE productiion crews and equipment, to the cost of the cameras and the cost of post etc.

Again...I think it will be a great technology with a place in the entertainment industry, but I cannot imagine that given the costs, in production, in that consumers have to shell out money for a new TV, and that local affiliates will have to invest to broadcast the 3D signals from networks...that it will achieve a high penetration anytime in this decade.

Like most discussions, the future is probably somewhere in the middle of the predictions of the enthusiasts and the pragmatists. I mean...look at the iPhone. It's a fabulous device...but most current figures put iPhone worldwide sales at roughly 40 million, with projections from Apple of 80 million by 2012. And keep in mind, that's not USERS...as one report estimated 40% of iPhone users have already upgraded from their old phone to a new one. Another report put nearly half of iPhone customers annual incomes at over $100,000.

Sure that's a lot of phones, but there are 5 billion people in the idustrialized world and that's a fraction of total phone sales and certainly suggests that a huge part of the potential market just cannot afford one. Now if people can't afford an iPhone, how they gonna afford a big, honking new 3D TV?

Chris Blair
Magnetic Image, Inc.
Evansville, IN
http://www.videomi.com


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Tim Wilson
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 6, 2010 at 7:43:54 am

[Chris Blair] "I couldn't find a thing about current televisions that were already capable of viewing the type of 3D that these networks are proposing to broadcast."

You won't find much about this on Bing because reporters are overworked (ie, lazy) and are largely recycling the same hype, which they get from the same handful of sources, including themselves. Because hey, if it's on the internet, it must be true, right?

(I'm not making fun of you for reading the internet. Quite the contrary! I'm a big fan. But I'm less than impressed with current reporting.)

You can start by going to your local Best Buy and looking at any Mitsubishi TV. Says right on the box that it's 3D-ready, which has been true for years. I bought mine in 2008.

3D decoding is also built into the recent HDMI spec. On the fly, it can decode under-over, side by side, interleaved, and anything else thrown at it via pixel addressing. The device tells it where to put the pixels, and it happens.

Now, THIS is the gating factor: the devices. The biggest one will be set-top boxes, but also Blu-ray players. The displays? Plenty are ready. I'll continue.

The "Full HD" spec is built around 1080p, which nobody is currently broadcasting. In addition to 1080i, 720p is also working fine. Of ABC, CBS, Fox and NBC, two are 1080 and two are 720. Can you tell by looking? I can't. No worries, the box handles it.

I also have a quarter-res upconverting projector I got in 2002. Via HDMI, even at 100"+, I defy you to tell me it's not native HD.

Now a few words about standards. I wrote a full post about this in the Stereoscopic forum - you can look it up - wherein I pointed out that there are at least 8 standards bodies at work on various aspects of home delivery, down to the use of graphics in set-top boxes. Think about it - where will OSDs live in 3D space? When the depth in the program material changes, the menu could appear to move and scale relative to that! Problem largely solved these days, but it wasn't automatic.

Once again, the box solves the problem for the display. The display is not an issue.

Also keep in mind that 74% of Gen Y watches more than half of their TV on their computer. I'm twice their age and watch probably a quarter of my TV online. Throw in Roku and Apple TV, and I can think of several people older than me who watch virtually ALL of their TV this way. Those devices are a firmware update away from any of the many 3D standards...all of which will work fine on any device connected to them.

But my point about computers is that my first 1080p 60 display was in 2000. Ready for the highest *current* spec of 3D, and any number of standards below the top.

With varying degrees of satisfaction? Yes. Do-able? Absolutely. Just as set-top boxes can work through these issues now, they will later.

As soon as they're ready. But tvs and the computer displays that will be watching this stuff? Ready now.

Well, and the glasses too I guess, but you can buy those now. To name one vendor, NVIDIA has been selling their active shutter glasses for quite a while now.

Seriously, think about it. Why would ESPN and others be launching all-3D networks in the next few months if 3D sets are as far in the future as the popular press and some manufacturers would have you believe? It wouldn't happen...and it's not going to happen.

So what's the hype around future 3D displays? More and better. While the *top* of the *current* 3D ladder is 1080p60 - a full 30 for each eye -- you can already buy sets at 1080p/240 - 120 for each eye! Which nobody, including the current HDMI spec, currently supports Future "proofing" - which we know doesn't exist. But still, it'd be cool to be ready for the next few iterations.

But think about it - if nobody is broadcasting 1080p ANYTHING, much less 1080p/60, then all we know about ESPN's output is that it will be less than 1080p/60! It won't be 1080p, either. It will be 1080i. Anybody here got a TV that supports that? I've got an embarrassing number of them. So does my 72 year-old dad. This isn't that hard.

And if the display can't handle 1080i natively, I'll bet you a box of Randy's Donuts that set-top boxes will cover a multitude of possibilities -- just as they do today!

There's also the matter of moving some of the computing into the display and out of the set-top box in the future...but again, today, simply not necessary.

Cast your mind back to the notion of cable-ready TVs with tuners that grab lotso channels. Well and good, and these venerable sets from the 80s still work great...as long as you don't need pay services or digital signals. And if you do? The box solves the problem! The fact is that I don't know if all my current TVs support hundreds of channels. I doubt it. And I know for a fact that at least one of them (the projector) has no built-in tuner whatsoever. The box takes care of that.

I'm repeating myself, but the short version is, if a display (including a computer display that plays TV) supports HD, it's ready now.

Last but not least, 3D works great in SD, too. I don't know about you, but my cable box has a gorgeous downconvert. I watch lots of HD on my one remaining set, one of those flat-screen Trinitron tubes that still looks wonderful. There are hundreds of stereoscopic movies already on YouTube, with anaglyph by no means the majority.

Laster but no lesser, what about boxes? There are hundreds of thousands of cable boxes already in homes that are addressable via firmware to support any current 3D standard. Many have that firmware already in place.

This isn't going to be hard. The adoption rate is going to blast by the rate for HD because the sets are already there. Many of the boxes are too.

Not that it all won't get dramatically better in the future. But it doesn't have to, which is why it will launch in 5 months. Admittedly the future, but still.


Yr pal,
Timmy





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Craig Seeman
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Mar 24, 2010 at 1:46:51 pm

Today Cablevision NYC will have their first 3D cablecast of NY Rangers hockey game on channel 1300.

It requires a 3D TV set. On a standard HDTV one will just see an image duplicated on the left and right of the screen. It does not look the same as a Real 3D Movie (Avatar, Alice in Wonderland) without glasses.

So for the folks who were touting the large number of compatible TV sets out there, it seems not. One must buy a new 3D TV set.



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Mike Cohen
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Mar 24, 2010 at 1:50:10 pm

[Craig Seeman] "So for the folks who were touting the large number of compatible TV sets out there, it seems not. One must buy a new 3D TV set."

I noticed best Buy now sells 3D LCD televisions - the price is roughly what you would pay for the same sized LCD a few years ago.

Mike Cohen


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Craig Seeman
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Mar 24, 2010 at 2:01:55 pm

and the technology they're using is alternating left and right frame, hence the duplicate image on left and right side of the screen.

This is the Samsung kit one needs for the Samsung 3D TV
http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/tv-video/televisions/television-accessor...

Their 3D TVs are "LED" and 46" model is about $2600 (that's their low end model).

Basically this means the market penetration is very low and it may be a year or two until the price drops to something close to current TVs. Given current non 3D TVs are still being sold, it's going to be VERY SLOW growth.

HDTV growth only began to accelerate when that was all you could get for the most part and even now market penetration in the USA is only around 60%. I ready that people tend to replace their TVs once every 5 years or so (wish I could find the report).

I apologize but I just don't think it's going to be that big for at least a few years. 3 years at the earliest by the time all the HDTVs on the market are 3D and a significant number of households have it.

I wish I could borrow a set of alternating shutter glasses to see how it looks on a standard HDTV to know for sure though.



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Craig Seeman
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Mar 24, 2010 at 2:04:00 pm

BTW here's the link
http://optimum.com/io/3d/index.jsp?s_cid=3dtv&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Foptimum...
and the link that says 3D TV needed.
http://optimum.com/details.jsp?note=3d



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Mike Cohen
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Mar 24, 2010 at 2:07:50 pm

Like most new technology, there are the early adopters who buy the latest gizmos regardless of price. Leo Laporte and the Digg or Gizmodo folks fall into this category - they write about these wonderful devices but leave out the fact that only a fraction of 1% of people will own them in the near future. So the media hype makes it seem like we will all get our daily newspaper on an ipad and watch our local news in 3D any day now.

Seeing my local crusty news anchors in HD is bad enough - seeing their face wrinkles in 3D sounds nauseating. I think I know why the local NBC guy shaved his signature moustache.

Mike


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Craig Seeman
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Mar 24, 2010 at 2:23:14 pm

[Mike Cohen] "they write about these wonderful devices but leave out the fact that only a fraction of 1% of people will own them in the near future. "
I agree. There were people in this thread who were insisting that a large number of the current TVs would be 3D compatible and the "hype" about 3D TV was just to sell new sets. They seemed to imply the "lazy" press was not reporting that many sets are already compatible. Again from everything I read that's not the case. If that were, I'd imagine that Cablevision would be trying to sell me that $350 glasses kit for my HDTV at this point.

[Mike Cohen] "eeing my local crusty news anchors in HD is bad enough - seeing their face wrinkles in 3D sounds nauseating. I think I know why the local NBC guy shaved his signature moustache. "

It sure looks like a target market is sports so it'll be your crusty sports anchors you'll be seeing. Will this mean the rise of the cute curvy female sports announcers along with recently retired good looking athletes?

I hope those saying 3D is here now and massive would explain to me how I'm wrong again. I'd love to see how Cablevision (which owns MSG) saying I need a 3D TV shows that many HDTVs are compatible. I'd think they'd be selling the glasses if that were the case.





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walter biscardi
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Mar 24, 2010 at 2:52:31 pm

I'm curious if there will be multiple flavors of 3D. A flavor that works with some of the current HDTVs out there, just like the 3D movies like Coraline works incredibly well on our Panasonic plasma screen.

I'm thinking the launch of ESPN 3D in June will probably tell us a lot about how the images will be broadcast to make the maximum benefit of all the HDTVs already out there.

I'm hoping there will be a demonstration of ESPN's broadcast at NAB this year so we can see what they're going to do.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" featuring Sigourney Weaver coming soon.

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Craig Seeman
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Mar 24, 2010 at 4:06:19 pm

All we need is multiple competing formats.

Granted the simple "color" type 3D would be easiest but it seems the TV manufacturers are going with the left/right alternating frame method which apparently requires new hardware (both TV and glasses). I'd love to see how this looks on a typical non 3D HDTV but this can't be viewed with the color separated 3D glasses one might have walked off with from Avatar.

You know there must have been some "back room" decision about MSG going with the frame alternating variant if it pushes new hardware. With so many manufacturers pushing 3D TVs I can't help but think "the fix is in" on this.



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Ron Lindeboom
Re: Setting up a 3D television at home
on Feb 6, 2010 at 7:36:26 pm

[Nick Griffin] "What constitutes a 3D capable set. (And please tell me I already have one of them.)"


Many people think that their existing TV flatscreens are not 3D-capable, when they are.

I have a 42" Polaroid flatscreen, nothing fancy, bought it for about $1,500 a couple years ago and it did not list 3D as one of its capabilities.

Can it do 3D? Yes, we have watched many a show on it -- and it is quite cool.

How did we get there?

You have to have a minimum of the following:
  • An HDMI flat-panel capable of 720 or 1080 HD support.
  • A Blu-ray DVD player
    OR
  • an up-converting progressive scan SD DVD player
  • An HDMI cable between the player and the flatpanel.
We have nothing fancier than that and we watch 3D movies all the time at home.

I cannot tell the difference between the up-converted progressive scan SD version of movies like Coraline in 3D, or their Blu-ray counterparts.

I do not trust the manufacturers to incorporate real up-conversion and progressive scan on the Blu-ray players, so I own separate units because I don't for the life of me believe that there is any advantage to a manufacturer to add real up-converting support to a Blu-ray player because they are so visually comparable that they would have viewers saying, "So what is the big deal about Blu-ray?"

One of the other secrets that we have found to getting great 3D at home, is that you have to have curtains that stop all outside light from coming in. We have window coverings that totally blacken the room. In that environment, our never-meant-to-be-a-3D-television-and-yet-it-is unit is more fun than any TV we have ever owned before.

Oh, and for those who want to insist that it doesn't work: please tell that to my friends whom we have also helped set up their own never-was-intended-to-be-3D-and-so-should-not-have-shown-3D-but-yet-they-do units. They love them, too.

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom
CEO, CreativeCOW.net

Creativity is a type of learning process where the teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint Exupéry


First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Gandhi


Better is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with the poor spirits who neither enjoy much, nor suffer much because they live in a gray twilight that knows no victory or defeat. - Theodore Roosevelt





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Herb Sevush
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 8:34:07 pm

DRW -

I guess I'm going to have to play the role of the Ludite at this party.

In 1954 Hitchcock made "Dial M for Murder" in 3D. At a special screening many years ago I saw the 3D print with glasses. At the key moment in the film there's a lovely shot with a scissors going right out into the audience before ending up between the shoulder blades of the bad guy. Everyone in the audience loved it. But not so much that enough people wanted to wear the glasses to make it worth the distributors while. Which is why almost nobody today knows that this very much watched movie was ever released in 3D.

A few months ago I saw "Up" in 3D and while I liked the movie, most of the time I was annoyed with the glasses and 3d effect. I fail to see how movies like Juno, Precious, or Up In the Air will be much improved - and I think if an audience had a choice between a 2D "Terminator" or a 3D "The Abyss" Arnold would still be taking in all the money - what would 3d add to the moment when he says "I'll Be Back". The most memorable moments in movies are the human interactions that resonate - "I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse" needs no other dimension.

I don't doubt that 3D action films and sports shows will find a sizeable audience, but for me content is king and I'm quite happy to watch Red River in 3:4 Academy B&W.

For the most part I make PBS cooking shows and I can't see the call for 3D here - hell, it took years before HD got a foothold and still today most cooking shows are still shot in SD. When someone asks for 3d I'll be quite happy to learn and oblige, but I'm not holding my breath.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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David Roth Weiss
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 9:05:27 pm

[Herb Sevush] "I guess I'm going to have to play the role of the Ludite at this party. "

Herb,

Since I know the bottom line on the PBS cooking shows, and it ain't nearly what most imagine, it's gonna be very hard for me to argue with you about the budget realities of creating 3D shows that are your bread and butter (that was a pun BTW).

However, if attracting an audience is what most of this business continues to be about, your employers had best start considering letting Jacques Pepin cook 3D lobsters, because I know that they will be doing so in kitchen stadium very soon.

BTW, Jacques sausage, broccolini, and cannellini bean ragout is simply one of the best dishes in my cooking arsenal. Girls simply love it when I cook it for them. That was one of your shows right?

David

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Herb Sevush
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 9:20:27 pm

David -

About 10 years ago Jacques did a series with Julia Child and that's when I worked with him. So, much as I'd like to, I can't take any credit for your amorous success.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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David Roth Weiss
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 11:40:38 pm

[Herb Sevush] "much as I'd like to, I can't take any credit for your amorous success"

Well that's too bad, I was hoping you did do that one. In any case, Google the dish and try it sometime Herb. It's all over the net, and man oh man, it's just yummy. And, it only takes just ten minutes to make too...

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Lyn Norstad
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 6, 2010 at 8:39:52 pm

Herb -

[Herb Sevush] "For the most part I make PBS cooking shows and I can't see the call for 3D here - hell, it took years before HD got a foothold and still today most cooking shows are still shot in SD. When someone asks for 3d I'll be quite happy to learn and oblige, but I'm not holding my breath."

I just caught ... quite by accident ... one of your "America's Test Kitchen" episodes on the local PBS station, WTTW in Chicago.

Nice show ... and they actually ran the credits slow enough that I saw your name pop up a couple of times.

It was one of those "Hey, I know him ..." moments.

Regards,

Lyn Norstad
Chicagoland, USA

Co-host of CreativeCOW forums:

Matrox Video Systems
Leitch dpsVelocity


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Herb Sevush
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 8, 2010 at 7:33:59 pm

Lynn -

Glad you liked the show - I run the credits xtra slow whenever my name comes up.

I still miss the old *edit forum, mostly because of people like you, Ron Shook, etc. - all I've got on the Final Cut side is DRW (just a joke David.)

Good to hear from you, hope your doing well.



Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions


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Ron Lindeboom
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 6, 2010 at 1:45:13 am

[David Roth Weiss] "the point I was trying to make is that the technology at it's very highest level is so good that there will be no stopping it, and it will be implemented almost everywhere before you know it."

As you know from the phone conversations that we have had on the subject, I am in 100% agreement with you here.

Me, I have to laugh at the people in this industry cheering against stereoscopic 3D. Why? It is one of the few things in the market now, which is actually HELPING maintain a disparity between working pros and those that aspire to be.

If HD had maintained this kind of distinction -- one that I believe that stereoscopic 3D will hold for a few years to come -- it would had given a differentiation to protect pros that lasted no time at all, in the case of HD.


[David Roth Weiss] "It's no gimmick, it's just a better way of viewing almost anything."

Good way to describe it, David. Again, agreement in full here.

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom
CEO, CreativeCOW.net

Creativity is a type of learning process where the teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint Exupéry


First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Gandhi


Better is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with the poor spirits who neither enjoy much, nor suffer much because they live in a gray twilight that knows no victory or defeat. - Theodore Roosevelt





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David Roth Weiss
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 6, 2010 at 1:59:40 am

[Ron Lindeboom] " I am in 100% agreement with you here. "

I like it!!!

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Ron Lindeboom
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 6, 2010 at 8:10:55 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Although I didn't see it, many here on this and other forums saw and have commented on the 3D commercial broadcast during last year's Superbowl. So, rudimentary 3D is capable without any technology other than a set of red and blue lens in cardboard frames. Great, that's cool for a quick thrill."

I responded to David's other remarks in another post but felt that this one deserved and merited its own uniquely focused reply.

What we watch on our home unit is not "rudimentary 3D" and it is a far cry better than 3D from the 1950s that Herb Sevush mentioned, for example.

One of my favorite things to do with our friends who tell me that you can't get 3D at home, is to sit them down in front of our 42" non-3D-but-yet-it-is flatpanel, and put in Coraline and show them the living fantastical garden sequence and then the same garden later in the movie when it is dead.

They usually laugh and have a great time and then want me to come over and set up their TVs for them. As it takes only minutes to do, I never mind.

That sequence from Coraline is anything but rudimentary.

Is it as good as what we saw together at Dreamworks, David? Hardly. Does it rival Real-D? Nope. Is it as good as IMAX 3d? Not a chance.

But does it blow away all the Roger Corman and Alfred Hitchcock "a pair of scissors coming at you" 3D? It is lightyears better than that.

What we get at home even made the piece of crap movie of Brendan Fraser's "Journey To the Center of the Earth" worth watching -- once. (Ah, dirty pleasures, eh?) ;o)

But I know what you mean by the state of the art in the theaters today, now THAT'S entertainment. :)

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom
CEO, CreativeCOW.net

Creativity is a type of learning process where the teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint Exupéry


First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Gandhi


Better is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with the poor spirits who neither enjoy much, nor suffer much because they live in a gray twilight that knows no victory or defeat. - Theodore Roosevelt





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David Roth Weiss
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 6, 2010 at 11:18:47 pm

[Ron Lindeboom] "What we watch on our home unit is not "rudimentary 3D" and it is a far cry better than 3D from the 1950s that Herb Sevush mentioned, for example. "

Cool!!! I'm just as new to this whole thing as you Ron, having seem my first new iteration of modern 3D with you at Dreamworks.

So, though I'm trying my best to see every kind of 3D display under the sun, I'm not there yet, and I still have lots to see and lots learn.

The one thing I do know is, I do want to see more and I want to learn more. I think it's obvious that we share that completely...

David

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Ron Lindeboom
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 7, 2010 at 12:02:49 am

I think you know I was not bagging on you, David. I just want people to be aware that this is arguably simpler and more fun to watch than many suppose.

Thanks for your enthusiasm, like you, I am really happy to see this come along as I never thought that I would see this at home in my lifetime (which seems to be going faster and faster all the time). ;o)

Have fun, David.

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom
CEO, CreativeCOW.net

Creativity is a type of learning process where the teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint Exupéry


First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Gandhi


Better is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with the poor spirits who neither enjoy much, nor suffer much because they live in a gray twilight that knows no victory or defeat. - Theodore Roosevelt





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David Roth Weiss
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 7, 2010 at 12:34:43 am

[Ron Lindeboom] "I think you know I was not bagging on you, David."

Nope, never thought that... I think we're saying many of the same things, it's just that some times when people feel the need to clarify, in emails or in posts on The Cow, it sometimes seems like a disagreement, when in fact, we're just trying to achieve greater accuracy and understanding. I think that continues to be one of the unfortunate and unfixable hazards of Internet communications.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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grinner hester
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 5, 2010 at 8:53:51 pm

There are no 3D pessimists, David. There will just a lways be those who call the world flat.
The first time I saw a true 3D screen was at the LATVfestival and it was awesome. I found myself relocating to different places in the room, as if it would change. No glasses. No special programming. Just a cool and obvious invention to enhance our art.

love it.



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Mick Haensler
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 6, 2010 at 1:10:15 pm

I just got called in to consult on a project with a local arena(taxpayer owned) that is putting in a Digital Signage network as well as an IMAG system for the arena. Unfortunately they have to take the lowest bid on this and you'll never guess what cameras the installation company specked out for the IMAG system. Canon GL2's......FREAKIN GL2's!!!! They bought 2 high end 8' LCD panels that must have cost gobs of cash and they're going to feed them with FREAKIN GL2's!!!! They can't even do 16x9 SD!!!

I have no fear of having to upgrade to 3D any time soon....

Mick Haensler
Higher Ground Media


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Alan Lloyd
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 6, 2010 at 1:17:26 pm

GL2? They still make those?

Seriously - a GL2 is what a truck guy would list as an LPS.

I've had to use them on occasion, and while they can produce a usable image outdoors during the day, they are not very sensitive and incredibly noisy.


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Richard Herd
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 6, 2010 at 8:42:17 pm

[Mick Haensler] "They bought 2 high end 8' LCD panels that must have cost gobs of cash"

I spec'd a 22' by 2' LCD panel in 07: $200k (didn't buy it).
I use CastNET & Scala.

The Cow needs more digital signage network gurus!



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Chris Blair
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 7, 2010 at 3:20:14 am

Mick Haensler: They bought 2 high end 8' LCD panels that must have cost gobs of cash and they're going to feed them with FREAKIN GL2's!!!! They can't even do 16x9 SD...I have no fear of having to upgrade to 3D any time soon....

Mick summed up the point I was trying to make in my two lengthy posts in just two sentences!

We're not pessimistic about 3D TV. We're pessimistic about convincing corporate America to pay more for equipment and technical know-how than they're paying now. We're pessimistic about people who make decisions about making videos outside of the world of network and cable TV (and it's a HUGE world outside it). We're pessimistic they won't pay the extra money to produce 3D programs.

And I've seen all the posts about Sony and others sponsoring 3D programming on the upcoming launches of the various 3D networks. That's far different than what we're talking about. In most of America, corporate people haven't even adopted HD yet...so regardless of how fantastic 3D TV looks, it will take them years to adopt it.

We're pessimistic about the general public figuring out what Ron and Tim have figured out about their current TVs and the capabilities of HDMI. If there are 10 million HDMI sets in homes today, I bet 9.5 million of them ARE NOT hooked up via HDMI to any device. Most of those people don't have a clue what HDMI is. They can barely hook up their DVD player using analogue cables. And keep in mind that consumer electronics stores price HDMI cables at ridiculously high prices that certainly discourage the average consumer from adding it to their purchase. The cheapest HDMI cable in Best Buy (I was in there today), was $39.95. You can get the same cable on Monoprice.com or Ebay for about $6....yet most people don't know that.

And still no-one is mentioning the artistic side of this. At some point the novelty and/or amazement at the images will wear off and people will still want great stories. I've seen Coraline mentioned several times in this thread. It has to be one of the best movies (animated or otherwise) I've seen in years. My 5 year old daughter, who's fallen asleep within 5 minutes at every single movie she's gone to since she was 3 years old (they number in the 30s), stayed awake and on the edge of her seat through the entire thing. It wasn't the 3D. She took her glasses off after 5 minutes. It was the story and the incredible art and direction of Henry Selick.

We're not pessimists and we're not ragging against anyone who's an enthusiast about it. We're simply looking at the economics of it as it applies to the buying public and corporate America. If it takes off...I'm all for it. But I'm with Mick when it comes to the bulk of video work that's done outside the entertainment and sports industries.

Chris Blair
Magnetic Image, Inc.
Evansville, IN
http://www.videomi.com


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cowcowcowcowcow
Ron Lindeboom
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 7, 2010 at 5:38:00 am

[Chris Blair] "We're not pessimistic about 3D TV. We're pessimistic about convincing corporate America to pay more for equipment and technical know-how than they're paying now. We're pessimistic about people who make decisions about making videos outside of the world of network and cable TV (and it's a HUGE world outside it). We're pessimistic they won't pay the extra money to produce 3D programs."

Then you don't realize the power of THE NEXT BIG THING nor of the old adage that you "sell the sizzle, not the steak."

The people that I knew who got into HD earlier than later were the ones who got the accounts, the same for those who jumped into DVD production before iDVD and DVD Workshop and Encore came along.

When things become commodities, you are right -- corporations like everyone else, pay based on supply and demand.

When the supply is coming out of the woodwork, then there is little power left to the one selling.

You can always find the "hole in the donut" man. Me, I would rather concentrate on those gooey sugary greasy calories encircling the air.

Some people see the donut, others only see the hole.

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom
CEO, CreativeCOW.net

Creativity is a type of learning process where the teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
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First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
- Gandhi


Better is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with the poor spirits who neither enjoy much, nor suffer much because they live in a gray twilight that knows no victory or defeat. - Theodore Roosevelt





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cowcowcowcowcow
grinner hester
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 7, 2010 at 11:00:23 pm

"well, color my become the norm but people aint gonna pay for it."
-some old guy after watching the Wizard of Oz



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David Roth Weiss
Re: A personal note to all 3D TV pessimists
on Feb 8, 2010 at 4:04:35 am

[grinner hester] "well, color my become the norm but people aint gonna pay for it."
-some old guy after watching the Wizard of Oz "


Well done Grin!!!







David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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