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Copyright on print job when client wont pay????

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Allan GronemannCopyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 9, 2009 at 4:36:34 am

Hi,

I have a client who needed some card's printed. It was all last minute so i had no time to give the client
a PO or invoice. All we agreed was the price.

I collect the file from the client and send for print, but when the client gets the print he refuses to accept
because some of the pictures are low resolution.

On The file i got from the client to print, some of the pictures are low resolution. I even informed the client, but they told me to go ahead.

I have already paid the printer out of my own pocket, and is now stuck with alot of cards i dont need.
Next day a friend of mine calls me and is willing to buy the cards for he's own use, so i sell them to him.

I'm not making a profit here, just trying to cover some of the loss.

Then the client calls me and say i must give them the cards because of copyright, and i refuse. ( I did not say i sold the cards ) I tell my client that since i printed the file they gave me, and i paid for it the cards must be mine???

They never signed my PO, or recieved any invioce from me since they did not want to accept the card's. Also i never signed anything.

I dont see why i have to give them the cards which i paid for.

I then told them i dont have the cards anymore and i sold them to somebody who is going to use them
for personal reasons to cover some of my losses. The person i sold them to is not going to resell or use them for any public publications.

Now they want to sue me, and i want to know who is in the right?????

( I can get the cards back if i want, but i will still refuse to hand them over to my client as i know they will sell them for a profit once the have them)

Please help.

Allan


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grinner hesterRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 9, 2009 at 8:50:43 am

I can't for the life of me think of what someone would want with somone else's business cards.
You in no way are obligated to give them a free product. On the other hand, if the artwork they provided is a registered trademark, you're in a pickle. You can't sell that.



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Allan GronemannRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 9, 2009 at 9:23:29 am

I forgot to mention that the cards are not business cards. they are more like greeting cards with design on them. That is why it is possible for me to sell them.


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Allan GronemannRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 9, 2009 at 9:27:47 am

Also there is no trademark on them, but they do have a copyright notice printed on them. They also do not have my clients logo or anything printed on them.. My main grudge is that the file they provided and asked me to print was what i printed, so there is unjust grounds for them to reject them.


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Mark SuszkoRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 9, 2009 at 1:50:42 pm

You can't sell them to anyone. But IMO you don't have to give them to the (now ex?) client.


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Ron LindeboomRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 9, 2009 at 2:05:29 pm

Mark, due to the COW policy that the correctly answering party must buy doughnuts all around, is on the hook for this morning's doughnuts.

No, you cannot sell them to anyone else.

No, you are not obligated to give them to them as they did not pay for the materials.

But there is a big bright yes in here, too...

Yes, you are hosed.

Ron Lindeboom


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Mark SuszkoRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 9, 2009 at 3:21:01 pm

Best donuts ever:

http://www.mel-o-cream.com/facts.html

I'll buy, but you must be in Springfield to collect, and better do it before 11 AM or they are GONE, daddy, gone....


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Scott CarnegieRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 9, 2009 at 6:08:35 pm

"No, you cannot sell them to anyone else. "

While I understand that this is correct according to the letter of the law, morally it isn't right that he is out $ because of this.


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David Roth WeissRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 9, 2009 at 6:21:07 pm

[Scott Carnegie] "While I understand that this is correct according to the letter of the law, morally it isn't right that he is out $ because of this.

"


Yes, but as they say, "two wrongs don't make a right.

If Allan wants to press the issue, he should take the other side to small claims court, if, as my good friend Mr. Lindeboom says, the numbers make that worth while.

However, breaking the law ones self in order to get even or to make a point is just not a good idea and never has the desired result.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Ron LindeboomRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 9, 2009 at 6:27:19 pm

[Scott Carnegie] "While I understand that this is correct according to the letter of the law, morally it isn't right that he is out $ because of this."

Just because someone does something unethical, does not give one the right to break the law, as retribution.

I can see how shoddy that defense would be before the judge.

Ron Lindeboom


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Mark SuszkoRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 9, 2009 at 8:01:24 pm

That thing about "they did x, so I did Y", is an excuse or stated motivation in a lot of those office crime incidents, when somebody gets pinched for stealing company property or something. They often point to something bad or wrong done by someone else as the "excuse" for what they did.

Someone else getting away with a crime is not a pass for you to try to do something wrong. Which is pretty much what Ron already said. But when employees see wrongs going on, unpunished, it is really bad for morale and they begin to get tempted to act out their anger in acts of "retribution", inspired by the unpunished events around them. Usually it is in tiny rebellions like office supply pilferage and late lunches or tardiness, but sometimes it escalates into liberating office computers, embezzling funds, and the like.

No, it doesn't excuse it. It's just a demonstrated phenomenon of human behavior.


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David Roth WeissRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 9, 2009 at 8:09:22 pm

[Mark Suszko] "Someone else getting away with a crime is not a pass for you to try to do something wrong. Which is pretty much what Ron already said."

Pretty much what Ron and David said...

I hope you E&O insurance is up to date Mark.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Mark SuszkoRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 9, 2009 at 8:14:18 pm

Will you stipulate to a consent decree regarding that for a Mel-O-Creme donut?:-)


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David Roth WeissRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 9, 2009 at 8:37:34 pm

You'll have to pay for my lawyer's donuts...

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Mark SuszkoRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 9, 2009 at 9:11:00 pm

Sorry, lawyer fees used up all the money in the donut fund.I guess it will have to be resolved via Thunderdome.


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Ron LindeboomRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 9, 2009 at 9:37:25 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "You'll have to pay for my lawyer's donuts..."


And he likes the RREEAALLLLYY expensive ones -- oh, and lots of 'em, too.

Ron


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Scott CarnegieRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 11, 2009 at 5:24:53 pm

"Just because someone does something unethical, does not give one the right to break the law, as retribution. "

That's not what I'm advocating. I think that copyright laws are much too pervasive anyways.


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David Roth WeissRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 11, 2009 at 5:39:03 pm

[Scott Carnegie] ""Just because someone does something unethical, does not give one the right to break the law, as retribution. "

That's not what I'm advocating."


I gotta say, you sure managed to fool a lot of us Scott.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Brendan CootsRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 10, 2009 at 12:18:45 am

First of all, If you had a contract with your client, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Secondly, you can't just go and sell a client's copyrighted artwork because they didn't pay you. Recovering losses in a situation like this is limited to suing the client for failure to pay, but again if you have no contract or signed documents, good luck.

All around, it sounds like your business practices were pretty sloppy on this one and there's a very real chance you are going to lose in court.

Brendan Coots

Splitvision Digital

http://www.splitvisiondigital.com


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Chris BlairRe: Copyright on print job when client wont pay????
by on Sep 11, 2009 at 12:38:07 am

Something that hasn't been clarified is: "who designed these cards using whose artwork?"

If the client designed them, then in the absense of a contract stating otherwise, they likely own the rights to them.

If the poster designed them, he likely owns it.

So if he designed the cards and the artwork, or paid for the use of the artwork thru a stock company, and the client's logo isn't on them, then he could sell them to whoever he wants.

If the client designed them, then like everyone else says, the poster really shouldn't sell them to someone else. Again, like most of these disputes, I can't imagine we're talking about very much money so I doubt the client would actually pay attorney's fees to take any legal action no matter what anyone did or does.

But if the client won't pay for them you you certainly have no obligation to turn them over to him regardless of who designed these things.



Chris Blair
Magnetic Image, Inc.
Evansville, IN
http://www.videomi.com


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