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Duplication thread, part 2

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Nick Griffin
Duplication thread, part 2
on Apr 29, 2009 at 10:44:25 pm

Re: the "Know what you're duplicating" thread, but on a slightly different topic...

What experience(s) do any of you have with copy protecting DVD's? How expensive are the various services and what do the minimum quantities have to be for it to be realistic? In the days of VHS it seemed to be around 1,000 or more copies before it made any sense at all.

Any vendors you recommend?

Also, do copy protection measures endanger which players/computers can handle the disks without problems?


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Shane Ross
Re: Duplication thread, part 2
on Apr 29, 2009 at 11:22:19 pm

Well, let me say that copy protection doesn't work. I rip DVDs (ones I bought) to my iPod all the time for when I travel...copy protected movies too. Copy protection is easily thwartable, so I would say save your money.

Copy protection on music is easily thwartable too.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Shane Ross
Re: Duplication thread, part 2
on Apr 29, 2009 at 11:55:45 pm

BUT...I know that several clients might not know this and want that copy protection as added piece of mind. But really, the people who want to copy protect things will figure out how to get past it. A quick google search is all you need.

Sad really. Especially for those Event guys who shoot recitals and want to sell multiple copies. People always say "I'll buy one and just copy it..."


Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Mike Cohen
Re: Duplication thread, part 2
on Apr 30, 2009 at 12:12:47 am

We have never used copy protection on a VHS or DVD replication job. As is common knowledge, DVD-R cannot use copy protection - only replicated discs. Thus for small runs we are usually limited to DVD-R. And for larger runs, even if we do replication, the numbers are usually so large that every person who would ever want the DVD will get one.

Recently we have been getting requests for Thumb Drives, rather than DVD. While the cost per unit is slightly higher than a DVD with Amaray case, the obvious "green" appeal is the reason. No case, no slip art, no disc, no shrink wrap. However something weird happens during the data transfer to the chip. The data appears as a CD volume on a Windows desktop, separate from the available space on the chip, as a separate disk volume. I guess this is a form of copy protection. I have not determined if the data in the CD volume can be deleted. However on Mac OS the data is not always playable. This needs further investigation.

Mike Cohen


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Arnie Schlissel
Re: Duplication thread, part 2
on Apr 30, 2009 at 2:17:56 am

[Mike Cohen] "The data appears as a CD volume on a Windows desktop, separate from the available space on the chip, as a separate disk volume."

Very curious. Is the "DVD" being copied onto the flash drive as a disk image, or as a Video-TS folder?

Arnie

Post production is not an afterthought!
http://www.arniepix.com/


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Matt Townley
Re: Duplication thread, part 2
on Apr 30, 2009 at 4:19:58 am

My core business is duplication and replication and I offer short-run DVD copy-protection. I am one of the few duplication services that I know of to offer this.

It is an encryption method called Rimage Video Protect (RVP) from Rimage Corporation. It is fairly expensive, but works pretty well. It requires Rimage Producer 7100 or 8100 equipment to use as well. I have a section on my website about it at http://www.mstproductions.com/services/cdanddvd/copy-protection.php. Im sure Rimage has more information about it as well on their site.

I won't go into too much detail about it here for space sake, but if you read about it on my site I go into quite a bit of detail about how it works.

Of course, RVP, just like any copy-protection method, is not 100% secure, but it certainly offers far greater protection from ripping and copying than CSS or any other method I have seen.


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Matt Townley
Re: Duplication thread, part 2
on Apr 30, 2009 at 5:42:56 am

Nick, I just re-read your post. Sorry I did such a poor job of actually answering your questions!

I do not have a minimum quantity for copy-protection for DVD's. I'm not sure about other vendors or how they handle this. As for cost, it is dependent on volume. Rimage licenses the RVP on a per disc basis and makes i a pain to get the dongles needed to activate the encryption. Perhaps thats why it works well? :)

I hope that helps......

Cheers!
Matt


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Steve Wargo
Re: Duplication thread, part 2
on Apr 30, 2009 at 6:24:30 am

Matt


What would it take to get a sample disc? I have people ask about copy protection quite often, and I also get requests for closed captions on HDCAM feature films.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .


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Matt Townley
Re: Duplication thread, part 2
on Apr 30, 2009 at 2:20:34 pm

I agree. The threatening sticker seems like a GREAT idea! I may have to try that or some variation on that. Love it.


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Matt Townley
Re: Duplication thread, part 2
on Apr 30, 2009 at 2:34:38 pm

Steve,

I can send you a sample disc that is RVP protected. Feel free to email me your address and I'll get a sample in the mail this afternoon.

I'm fairly new to COW so I'm not sure what the best-practice is concerning posting prices and advertising for oneself in the forums....so I will email you some information on Closed Captions and the copy-protection.

If anyone is interested in pricing I can email a rate sheet to anyone interested.

Thanks!


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Nick Griffin
Re: Duplication thread, part 2
on Apr 30, 2009 at 3:19:38 pm

Matt-

I'm not the arbiter of the protocols of the COW, but I believe that you are acting entirely properly. As long as posts are not blatant commercialism they're usually fine. You are correct to invite inquiry outside of the context of these posts rather than putting up a rate card. I for one will email you. I'll also be adding sticker to my disks saying that copying them may result in permanent damage to the manhood of the pirate.


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Steve Wargo
When it was VHS...
on Apr 30, 2009 at 6:14:24 am

We had a really official sticker made that said "This program is protected by the Interpol Copy Protection System. We are not responsible for any damage to your VCR during any attempt to copy this program".

Worked like a charm.

Macrovision had a minimum quantity and then ended up around a buck a copy to use. We could just run the signal through an MX-50 switcher and it stripped the Macrovision away.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .


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Nick Griffin
Re: Pushed over the edge
on Apr 30, 2009 at 1:40:39 pm

That's it. After the supervisor advice, this one has pushed me over the edge. I'm ready to place my advance order with Amazon.com for the "Book of Wargo-isms." When does it come out, Steve?


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Steve Wargo
Re: Pushed over the edge
on May 1, 2009 at 6:30:35 am

[Nick Griffin] ""Book of Wargo-isms.""

Thanks Nick. It's actually called either "Wargonisms" (like organisnms) or "Wargasms" (like orgasms) and I've been working on it for a year. Probably another year to go. Remember, I'm an x-hard core biker and I have quite a few. One of then is the definition of "Quick Chick".

Your copy will be free.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .


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Nick Griffin
Re: Pushed over the edge
on May 1, 2009 at 11:16:32 am

[Steve Wargo] ""Wargasms""

Hmmm. My level of interest is dropping fast. And to think one of my earlier posts was delayed by the Cow mechanism because I used the word m*nhood.


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Ron Lindeboom
Re: Pushed over the edge
on May 1, 2009 at 4:59:57 pm

If you knew how many autobots try to spam the COW *daily* over and over with that and other words, you'd know why.

Perhaps I should just shut the filters off and let it all go up. It'd be a really nice place in short order.

The Gestapo


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Nick Griffin
Re: Pushed over the edge
on May 1, 2009 at 5:08:40 pm

Noooo, Uncle Ron. PLEASE don't turn off the filters! I once had a site where people could post without restriction and it got beyond stupid after a very short while -- bad posts were going up faster than I could pull them down and drowning out the real ones.

The sad part was that it was a eulogy site for one of my best friends and suddenly bots were dropping ads for Vi*gra on it over and over. However the funny part was knowing that if he could see it he would be very amused.

So, no, Ron. None of us think of you as the Gestapo. Git-Mo interrogator maybe, but not Gestapo.


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Mark Suszko
Re: Pushed over the edge
on May 1, 2009 at 5:58:05 pm

Not Autobots, those are the good guys, you're thinking of Decepticons:-)

I don't mind Ron's filters, really, but I have been caught more than once by one particulalr filter glitch that puts my posts in moderation when it sees two certain separate words together, even though there is a space between them, and it errs on the overly-cautious side. Filters are not good at homonyms or synonyms.


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Ron Lindeboom
Re: Pushed over the edge
on May 1, 2009 at 8:38:41 pm

[Mark Suszko] "Filters are not good at homonyms or synonyms."

No, but they are good at keeping the signal higher than it would be otherwise.

:o)

Autobots and Decepticons. Good one, Mark. (Aw, Saturday morning cartoons.)

Ron



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walter biscardi
Re: When it was VHS...
on Apr 30, 2009 at 2:04:47 pm

[Steve Wargo] "We had a really official sticker made that said "This program is protected by the Interpol Copy Protection System. We are not responsible for any damage to your VCR during any attempt to copy this program". "

That is incredibly, absolutely, positively, one of the most brilliant things I've ever heard of. I LOVE it!




Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

Read my Blog!

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!


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Mark Suszko
Re: When it was VHS...
on Apr 30, 2009 at 1:57:49 pm

My stock answer to event video guys asking about anti-piracy is that anybody that wants to badly enough will pirate your work anyway, even if they have to resort to shooting it off an LCD with a camera. It may look horrible but they don't care enough compared to the "savings". Technological means can always be defeated by a determined pirate. The best you can hope for is to make the task difficult enough that they don't find it profitable to waste their time on. Same as with theft-proofing a car or whatever.

With pirates, the decision to pirate a disk revolves around some simple cost/time math. If they can rip a copy and sell a lot of it for half of the standard cost of a legit copy, they will do so. Picking a number out of my, um, ear, let's say they want to sell disks for twenty bucks that originally go for fifty. They'll do that, if the title is popular enough. Now what if the original is 25 bucks? They may still go for it, re-selling the pirated dubs for ten. They still make a little profit there, if the title is really in demand. But what happens if the standard cost of the legit disk is ten bucks or less? Suddenly, few buyers want to go to the extra hassle of finding a pirate vendor to get a deep discount off a 10-dollar disk of iffy quality. The pirate would have to offer it for five to get any nibbles. At five per disk, minus a buck to a buck fifty for the blank media and the time to dub it, it no longer makes sense to the pirate to bother, he can put his time to better use stealing someone else's product. People making casual dubs for sharing among family members will say, heck with it, they are cheap enough I can just buy more real ones. I used to copy my old 45's to mp3 and it took me at least 25 minutes to do each record, now I just say to myself, itunes has it for 99 cents without scratches or pops, my time is worth more than that to me, just pay to download it.

You can defeat any technology, given time, but it is much harder to bet against human nature.

But Mark, how do I make any money off of ten-dollar discs?
Well, my answer is not perfect, but it goes like this: you charge an up-front fee that covers ALL your production costs, plus a little profit, and you don't produce the product in the first place without pre-booking the minimum number of orders and getting the cash in hand, in advance. For something like school plays and recitals, you get the full amount up front from the organization and have the parents handle collecting reimbursements to the organization from their organization members later; in this way they rat each other out if one tries to pirate copies and distribute to others. I learned this from a recital I shot where one mom fronted me all the money to shoot and edit, then she rode herd over the other moms to get her money back from them, and you better believe she came down hard on anybody that even suggested making their own dubs for free. And I didn't have to worry about collections.

Well ok, Mark, that might work for small-run event things. But I want to self-distribute something like a hunting and fishing doc to a wider audience, what then? And do you know you're talking to yourself BTW? That's wierd...


The other half of my flawed answer is, you offset the lower profits by accepting sponsorships or underwriting, and/or by including advertising on the DVD's. Works for school yearbooks. In fact, if you can get a big-enough sponsorship deal, you wind up deliberately giving the DVDs away! And the advertiser WANTS that, wants the DVD "pirated" in that case, it only helps spread their advertising. You've made the program go viral. (This idea sponsored by the Army and Carl's Junior).

Yes, there are a lot of fine details to work out in such a scheme. But it may be a workable distribution model for some programming.


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Steve Wargo
As for movies
on May 1, 2009 at 6:44:26 am

All you do is play it on your computer and send it out of the VGA port, through a Sony DCS1024HD scan convertor and run it into any DVD recorder. This works really great for PAL conversions too.

like Mark said, if we want it, it's ours.

And the clincher is that I have never pirated anything. But, it's cool to know that I could. Honor first!

They just had the Wolverine Premier at a theater about a mile from our house. It was shown on the world's largest theater screen at 32 feet across. As you all probably know, a version of the movie was pirated and released on the internet. I'm willing to bet that the early peek did more to promote sales than keep people away.



Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .


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Bruce Bennett
Re: Duplication thread, part 2
on Apr 30, 2009 at 1:39:20 pm

Hi Nick,

Late last year, I subbed out a 2-disc DVD set replication job with CSS copy protection on both discs. My preferred vendor, Great Lakes Media Technology out of Mequon, Wisconsin, did a great job. I only paid for a “copy protection” set up and a minimal price-per-disc charge. There were no glass mastering costs.

Yes, this process is for replication/pressed discs (versus burned discs). I usually find the magic number of copies is usually 500 pieces in order to do this feasibly/economically.

The DVD masters had to be burned a “special way” in which my editor understood how to easily provide.

As far as people “breaking the code” to copy the discs… I figure the vast majority of people/consumers are using their “pre-installed” or demo/lite copy software, which cannot copy CSS protected discs. If they have software that can break the code and copy, there’s not much we can do about it, but then again, it will be a very small amount of people/consumers.

Bruce

Bruce Bennett
Bennett Marketing & Media Production, LLC


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Matt Townley
Re: Duplication thread, part 2
on Apr 30, 2009 at 2:27:43 pm

Bruce -

Adding CSS to a DVD is a two part process. As you mentioned, it must first be added to the DVD when it is authored. The encryption is then activated during the replication process by the manufacturer, who pays fees the fees to license it.

Typically speaking for most authoring software, adding the CSS feature requires that you output to a DLT and supply that to your replicator. There are a few different work arounds to this, but generally speaking, this is still the case. I would make sure that anyone that tells you they can add CSS to a DVD master REALLY knows that they are doing.

Matt


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Bruce Bennett
Re: Duplication thread, part 2
on Apr 30, 2009 at 2:30:06 pm

Hi Matt,

Thank you for the clarification. I am not too up on the techno lingo and processes (I take the attitude “that’s what I pay my editors for”).

I believe my vendor created whatever masters/sources that the needed from my supplied materials/programs. I remember for the first supplied DVD was burned a certain way out of FCP in order for the CSS protection to be added by my vendor. For the second disc, we supplied that source material on an external hard drive. What GLMT did on their end wasn’t a concern to me – all I cared about were the prices, quality control and deliverables with copy protection.

Got me a few thousand duplicated sets with CSS protection, so I guess they do in fact, know what they are doing :)

Cheers!
Bruce

Bruce Bennett
Bennett Marketing & Media Production, LLC


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Matt Townley
Re: Duplication thread, part 2
on Apr 30, 2009 at 3:51:55 pm

I thought I would share this interesting article about the trial regarding CSS and Fair Use, etc. It's a few days old, but seemed of relevance to this discussion.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/04/press-removed-from-dvd-copying-tri...



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Hawke Taylore
Re: Duplication thread, part 2
on Apr 30, 2009 at 11:57:16 pm

OK, I'm jumping back in here. I believe we should have an encryption method that is affordable and easy to use for all of us. However the encryptions are like locks, they are only there to keep the honest people honest. Having said that, we use a good tactic provided to us by the federal government. The FBI warning has been released to us in a generic form that we are allowed to use.
It says, "Warning: The unauthorized reproduction or distribution of this copyrighted work is illegal. Criminal copyright infringement, including infringement without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and is punishable by up to 5 years in federal prison and a fine of $250,000." We use this with our own logo shadowed behind it.
Keep in mind that we are currently NOT allowed to use the FBI seal, at least not yet. if you would like to verify the use here is the link http://www.fbi.gov/ipr/
This has been a great deterrent for our customers for copying themselves. It is not the best but it does keep the honest people honest.

Hawke Taylore
Taylore Studios
Audio Visual Consortium


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Doug Collins
Re: Duplication thread, part 2
on May 1, 2009 at 7:05:20 pm

I love the fact that the page ends with a copyright warning.

Doug


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