BUSINESS AND MARKETING: Business and Marketing Forum Business and Marketing Articles

Question of ethics

COW Forums : Business & Marketing

<< PREVIOUS   •   FAQ   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Aaron CadieuxQuestion of ethics
by on Feb 24, 2009 at 6:11:44 pm

Simple Question,

Should I work as hard and as fast as I can at a job in which I am woefully underpaid? Or, should I work at a speed appropriot for what I'm getting paid? I'm a video editor/video production specialist.

Thanks.

-Aaron



Return to posts index

Bob ZelinRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 24, 2009 at 9:46:26 pm

you should look for another job. Your employer is "screwing you", and you are going to get back at him, by "screwing him". You are still underpaid. How about finding another job ? Ultimately your employer will find a kid he can pay less than you, and fire you anyway. Are you too busy with your bowling league, and softball games to look for another job ?

Bob Zelin



Return to posts index

Aaron CadieuxRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 3:12:01 pm

I sense a little hostility from you. You address me as if you know me personally. I am always looking for employment elsewhere, but in case you haven't noticed, it's not exactly a booming economy. The company is very small and I know how much business comes in and out of this place, and how much effort my employers but into the business (which isn't much). It's hard to put effort into something when the hire-ups are playing video games on their computers in the next room.



Return to posts index


David Roth WeissRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 24, 2009 at 9:49:32 pm

Only you can judge the level of expectation that you've established with your client, we can't possibly know what that is. Just keep in mind, your reputation and your own self-esteem hang in the balance, so you must always take both factors into consideration when determining your course of action in matters like these. As long as you always deliver more than you promise, you will be just fine.



David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.


Return to posts index

denise quesnelRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 24, 2009 at 9:51:52 pm

Hi Aaron

I don't think this as simple an answer as many may think it to be. You should ask yourself if the effort you decide to put into the project is reflective of how you feel, or due to actual business practice.

With every project we have to measure how much our time is worth, because time spent on a project is potential time marketing ourselves and getting more paid work. If you are currently allowing the time you are spending on an underpaid gig to take away from time you would otherwise spend on gigs that pay the bills (or marketing your company) then this isn't an issue of ethics as much as it is in running a business appropriately.

However if you are not allowing the underpaid project to take away time from other work/potential work/sleep then there is possibly no reason to readjust the effort put into the work in conjunction with pay.

Does the client know that you are taking a pay cut on this?

In this kind of situation what I would suggest is to look out for your business first, and notify the client that in fact you would typically charge xxx$$$ for this project and you are taking a pay cut. In order to continue running your business and pay bills, you will have to take this project on as more of a 'side' project on weeknights/weekends etc. Make them understand that it will take longer to complete their work.

As a general rule:
1. Good + Fast = Expensive
2. Good + Cheap = Slow
3. Fast + Cheap = Inferior

This article at FreelanceSwitch details the above options and how to explain pricing to clients.
http://freelanceswitch.com/money/fast-good-cheap-pricing-freelance-work/

If the client says "I don't understand why it will take longer to complete my project- why, that isn't fair at all!" Then you need to explain to them that you are running a BUSINESS, and that means you have bills etc to pay. SO you will need to take longer on their work so you can juggle other paid work at the same time.

Also as a general rule, no matter how the pay is for a job I want to work on, I will never sacrifice quality.


"Should I work as hard and as fast as I can at a job in which I am woefully underpaid? Or, should I work at a speed appropriot for what I'm getting paid? I'm a video editor/video production specialist."



Return to posts index

Mark SuszkoRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 24, 2009 at 10:16:49 pm

Very well put, Denise.

My 2 zlotys (left after buying Pazcky today):

Whatever you are working on, you should give it your best and work as fast and hard as is practical and sustainable. The reasons are, as have been mentioned before, that if you finish early, you free yourself up to go do something else productive, inside your trade or outside of it. If nothing else, take the free time to go out away from the office and get your head straight. Go play with your kids, your dog, go run along the beach, paint something... whatever, remind yourself about what is truly important and what is a means to an end.

Additionally, others watching you and your work at the shop are never going to take into account the conditions under which you did the job. They will only look at the work and judge you by it. By leaving nothing but good examples of your work behind, you add justification for a raise or retention of your job, you also make yourself more attractive to others who may see your effort and hire you. I figure: "if that guy is that good, working under weak conditions, how much better can he get in GOOD conditions?"

To keep your own sense of dignity, your ego, and self-respect, you should always give the job your best, regardless of your feelings for the boss. In fact, I'm often at my best when I'm p.o.'d about something and channel my anger into creative energy, as a way to throw my excellence back in someone's face. Some people smash things up when raging: my theraputic expression is to create something, in a way nobody else can.

I've said this next part often: if you're getting the money you agreed to get, the fact you are under or overpaid is nobody's business, its all on you. Want more? Feel you deserve it? Can you prove it? Do they have it to give? Then go ask for it. If the conditions are poor, negotiate for better ones. Nobody but your momma is going to give you free bonuses without you taking some initiative to take what's owed you.

One of the first rules in negotiation is: you have to be willing to walk away from the unacceptable deal, and THEY have to know that you can. Or you will never win. So if you really can't stand the place another second, start working on your own exit strategy. Develop new skills on your own time. Network and build new leads, new directions. Give yourself options so that if you want to negotiate with them, you WILL have the power to take it or leave it.
Best of luck to you.


Return to posts index


Aaron CadieuxRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 3:16:02 pm

Thanks Mark,

I guess I should have explained better, but I was speaking in regards to my full-time job. I have been working at this company for 3+ years and only recently got my first raise. It was a sizeable raise, but, as far as I'm concerned, I am still underpaid. I am making $35,000 a year salary. I am their video editor, shooter and computer IT guy rolled into one. We don't have much business coming in, so I know more money isn't really an option, but at the same time, I feel it's unfair to me to give them $50 or $60,000 dollars worth of work for $35,000. I am always looking for employment elsewhere, but it's hard these days.



Return to posts index

walter biscardiRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 3:26:58 pm

[Aaron Cadieux] "I feel it's unfair to me"

Life isn't fair. It really isn't and the sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be. If you're complaining about this now, you'll be complaining later when you're making $60,000 and the guy next to you is making $65,000.

Let me tell you what's not fair. Building a business with a partner for three years, then having said partner lock you out of the building, remove all equipment from three edit suites, the entire tape library and then turn around and sue you to pay off the remaining half of said equipment. To the tune of almost $50,000 and leave you with absolutely zero. So then you have to invest $30,000 to get your own equipment and get your own company up and running. $80,000 in the hole after three years of building your own business is not fair. But it happened.

Here's what I would do in your case. Business is slow as you said. So get your work done as quickly as possible and start learning as much as you can about the equipment and software you have access to. I mean the gear is free, the software is free, it's all sitting right there in front of you. Gear is expensive and once you start paying for it yourself you realize just what a money pit you're getting in to. Take advantage of all the free gear and free time you have and learn as much as possible about everything you have access to. I've always done this in prior jobs and continue to do this today. This makes me more valuable to my clients and in your case will make you more valuable to your next employer. Knowledge is truly power.

If you want to "slow down your work to match your supposed low pay" then by all means do it. But taking advantage of the slowdown to learn new things about your craft will pay off dividends down the road.


Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

Read my Blog!

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!


Return to posts index

Aaron CadieuxRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37:09 pm

I understand where you're coming from. And to be clear, I always give 110% on everything I do. That's probably the main reason why I'm so frustrated. I always have my eyes open for what's out there. And it could be worse, I could not have a job.



Return to posts index


Ron LindeboomRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 6:29:34 pm

[Aaron Cadieux] "I have been working at this company for 3+ years and only recently got my first raise. It was a sizeable raise, but, as far as I'm concerned, I am still underpaid. I am making $35,000 a year salary. I am their video editor, shooter and computer IT guy rolled into one. We don't have much business coming in, so I know more money isn't really an option, but at the same time, I feel it's unfair to me to give them $50 or $60,000 dollars worth of work for $35,000. I am always looking for employment elsewhere, but it's hard these days."

Wow. I look at this and it's pretty self-explanatory.

The boss is having a hard time and is barely making it because work is slow and business is not great. He/she gave you a "sizeable" raise but you think it's not enough, even though the company "do[es]n't have much business coming in." You are looking for another job but can't find one. Doesn't that tell you what the reality of the market is? Or are you unable to see that your boss is keeping you working when they are likely making far, far less than you might presume?

I know plenty of bosses who pay their employees only to find that when it is all said and done, they have little to nothing left over for themselves and eventually the company either folds or lays off the people when they completely run out of money.

NOW, REALITY CHECK HERE, AARON...

You can either get off your high horse and roll up your sleeves and do whatever you can to try to strengthen this company in a horrible market time or you can contribute to the problems your boss is trying to fight through, until the whole thing collapses and you have NO job.

Not only is your boss fighting the current lack of market and business, but they are also up against the new administration that is saying things like -- to quote them -- "Yes, businesses should make money and turn a profit but that time is not now." Huh? And my incentive for building a business is what when you take damned near everything I make to pay for those who were too stupid to tell the truth on their mortgage papers and said they were making $200,000 a year when they were actually making $48,000?

Here in California, over the last decade, 85% of new job creation was in government and only 15% was growth in private sector jobs. The 15% that doesn't get the benefits or advantages and takes all the risks is going to carry the 85% that gets the benefits and takes no risks? Maybe, but they are not going to carry it for long...

Your boss is up against incredible odds and will likely not make it. The odds are well against them.

...and you are adding to these odds.

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom

Creativity is a type of learning process where the teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.


Return to posts index

Aaron CadieuxRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 7:00:21 pm

Once again. I work hard for them. I give 110% all the time. As far as they know, I'm content. So, in reality, I'm not making things more difficult for them. I guess I can understand how you might see my original post as a sign that I am in fact slacking. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I simply wanted to know if always putting in 110% is in my best interest. I gather from the responses that I've gotten that it is.

Thanks.



Return to posts index

Zane BarkerRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 7:21:03 pm

The reason that everybody thinks you are currently slacking off is bucause you actualy asked if it was ok to do so.

There are no "technical solutions" to your "artistic problems".
Don't let technology get in the way of your creativity!



Return to posts index


cowcowcowcowcow
Chris BlairRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 24, 2009 at 10:38:20 pm

We do work for a monastery near us. The monks there have a saying:

"We seek the extraordinary through the ordinary work of our everyday lives."

What they're saying is that the guy assigned to scrub the toilets takes as much pride and care in doing his job as the guy who's running the entire show. It's a "team" approach taken to it's extreme.

It must work. Monasteries have been around since the Crusades and this particular monastery has been there for 150 years and is more vibrant and financially sound than it's ever been. This...despite all the bad PR and troubles of the Catholic church over the last decade.

What I'm saying is, pay shouldn't matter when it comes to the quality and speed of the work you do for your employer or your clients. I've had employees like you in the past. I hate them. Yes...strong words...but a fact. If you have that attitude about your current job, you're going to find reasons to not do your best at any job you work. I've been in this business 25 years and a facility owner for 13 and I've seen it over and over.

Jobs are NOT designed to bring you fulfillment and self-worth. They're designed to pay your bills. Should you find one that brings you the other two, you're damn lucky. I own the company and I'm not particularly fond of 50% of the stuff I do. It doesn't make me do it slower, or at any lower quality. My reputation is attached to EVERY single thing I do. It's attached to every single thing my employees do. They screw up. I look bad...not them. MY money is tied up in this business. If it fails, I lose my job, probably my house, my credit and years of hard fought goodwill.

Your employer may very well be a crappy, uncaring boss, but he's taking risks you're not. You can leave without repurcussions at any time. He or she cannot.

I don't mean to sound harsh. But the best employees we have are those that are positive, upbeat, have a good sense of humor and don't constantly question every motive and course of direction they're given. Very few owners and bosses assign work to people with any ill intention, and most I know understand that they have to pay good employees well to retain them. Maybe your boss doesn't want to retain you?

Again...I don't know you so I hope I don't sound too harsh. But a business owner has enough to worry about, especially in these times, without having to worry over the grumblings of someone who thinks they're being taken advantage of. Heck...maybe you are being taken advantage of, but learn from it. Don't do it to other people when you get in a better situation. Learn to NOT manage the way this person manages.

In the meantime, look for a new job.




Chris Blair
Magnetic Image, Inc.
Evansville, IN
http://www.videomi.com


Return to posts index

Aaron CadieuxRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 3:23:10 pm

Chris,

I understand your point of view, but like you said, you don't know me. It took 3+ years to get a raise from these people, and they always tell me "you're the best editor we've had". In all fairness, my raise was substantial (18%), but with that, I am still making far below what someone in my position should make. From an employers standpoint you may "hate" an employee who feels their being taken advantage of, but an employee may feel resentment toward someone taking advantage of them. My original post is taken one of two ways. An employee will see it and feel sympathy, while an employer will see it and think "oh, another ungrateful underling". Maybe if more employees were unhappy being taken advantage of, this country wouldn't be in the mess it's in now, which after all, is a direct result of corporate greed.



Return to posts index

Aaron CadieuxRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 3:17:14 pm

Denise,

You should probably read the respose I posted to Mark. I'm sorry I didn't explain myself better. I am actually talking about my full-time job, not a client of mine.

-Aaron



Return to posts index


Steve WargoOh, you're THAT guy...
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 6:13:36 am

If you sign on to do a job at "X" dollars, you have signed on to do your best work at that price. Unless, when you were hired, your new employer said "So, Aaron. I can only pay you half of what your worth so please feel free to give it 50%. Sleeping is OK, as are flip flops and beach shorts".

I suggest that you need to take the question you asked us, to the person who is responsible for your paycheck.

By the way, I originally wrote three long paragraphs that I decided to delete.

Biting my tongue (fingers)
Biting my tongue (fingers)
Biting my tongue (fingers)

Good God. I feel like Bob Zelin.




Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .


Return to posts index

Bruce BennettRe: Oh, you're THAT guy...
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 2:36:45 pm

I agree with Steve on this.

When I worked for a post house for 8-years, we had a couple of employees who came from a local TV station. We paid them more money than they were making at the station, but they still would come to me (versus the owner) and complain that they weren’t making the amount of money they felt that they were worth, or deserved. They also didn’t like the fact that I was making more money than they did. (My title was Sales Manager. I was paid a very low base salary, made additional commissions on new client sales, and also wrote, directed and produced projects). I told them, if you want to make the money that I make, we can also lower your salary to equal my base salary, pay you commissions on new client sales, and you can also still edit, dub, etc. That would give them the opportunity to make more money based on their performances. They decided to keep their non-commissioned based salaries and predictable paychecks.

When I worked for a corporation as a Project Manager/Producer, we had lots of print graphic artists who always complained that they were underpaid compared to the manager level Project Managers that they reported to. The graphic artists felt they “did all the work” and the project managers had it easy since they didn’t do the actual layouts and design. I suggested that apply for management level positions and then they could get paid more (along with the new duties of countless meetings, performing employee reviews, resolving in-house customer complaints, be accountable when campaigns did not produce the ROI, and be accountable on keeping within budgets). Again, most of them decided to keep their “less responsible” jobs and “lower paid” salaries.

Typically, the people within a company that “create the work” do not get paid as much as managers. Managers take on more risk of losing their jobs. When an upper level manager or officer of the company gets pissed off because a campaign went over budget, didn’t work like predicted, and feels that it was a huge waste of money, usually the department head and/or Project Manager is the one who catches Hell and gets fired – not the graphic artists. They typically get to report to their new manager who takes over for the fired manager.

Bruce

Bruce Bennett
Bennett Marketing & Media Production, LLC


Return to posts index

Aaron CadieuxRe: Oh, you're THAT guy...
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 3:43:14 pm

Steve,

With how defensively you responded, you might as well be my boss. I never said I am actually giving less of an effort. As a matter of fact, I always give 110%. This is a cut-throat industry where $$$ is everything. I just wanted to know if anyone else out there believes in the old saying "you get what you pay for". Toyota produces Scions and Lexus. If you pay $20,000 for a Scion, you're getting a good car, but you'd never expect it to drive like a Lexus (even though Toyota is capable of producing a Lexus). If you want Lexus results, you have to pay for a Lexus. My concious would never allow me to slack off at my job, but I am sure most employees would love to slack off when they're underappreciated.



Return to posts index

Ron LindeboomRe: Oh, you're THAT guy...
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 4:06:07 pm

[Aaron Cadieux] "...but I am sure most employees would love to slack off when they're underappreciated."

Which is one of the many reasons that the world is in such a mess today.

Growing up on a dairy I learned early-on that life isn't fair and that "dairy kids" have to work seven days a week, 365 days a year. The cows didn't care that I wanted to go surfing and that it was Summer vacation. They wanted to eat. The kids I knew that grew up on crop farms didn't have to work like that, they got regular time off.

BUT...

It taught me that I have only one gear: mine. I do my work without excuses and I don't wait for the world to get fair before I do it. I let the whiners whine, while I blow past them with the one gear that I have in my transmission: to do the very best that I can do, nothing else matters.

Why?

Because it reflects on me. If I let my life be about what is fair or isn't or about giving only my best when it's paid for, then there is always an excuse for shoddy second-rate work. I give myself no such quarter and do not allow that kind of slack in my thinking, thank you.

I don't take the jobs that I don't want but I never do a job as second-rate. It is either done to the best of my ability, or I don't take the job or the money.

As Walter said and I agree with him: Life isn't fair, it is about what happens when you were wishing for something else. Make the best of what you have, or don't. Life is far too short to worry about what's fair and only doing an equal measure of production for equal return.

It would be great if life were always so simple, it isn't. Therefore, I work to my own standard and will always do the best that I can because it is the measure of who I am. If I do only that is equal to circumstance, then my life has too many hoples in bucket to ever hold onto much for long.

That's my opinion.

Your mileage may vary and if it does, you are welcome to drive as you see fit.

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom

Creativity is a type of learning process where the teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.


Return to posts index

Steve WargoOK. How much do you pay......
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 8:11:14 pm

OK, let me start over. When we give a client a proposal, most of the time, it is "tiered" to different dollar levels. We put out what they are willing to pay for. If they can't afford the great stuff, we sell em the good stuff. Fair is fair. You need to discuss this with your employer. Make sure that it's a fair price for the job being done and the person doing the job. He might be thinking that you are an overachiever and actually feel a bit guilty. On the other hand, he might be thinking that he is getting an incredible deal and plans to keep using you forever.

My car analogy is this: How much do you pay the best Mercedes mechanic in town to change a tire on a 78 junker?

If the application doesn't match the worker, something needs to be adjusted.

But, as Walter or someone else said, be careful what you post, the COW has zillions of lurkers. Some of the most unlikely people have said to me "Hey, I saw your post on the COW...".

Hope this cleared up any confusion about my answer.



Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .


Return to posts index

Zane BarkerRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 7:07:44 am

[Aaron Cadieux] "Question of ethics"

If you have to ask then chances are its not ok.

Aaron, also please remember that this is a public forum and that is is vary possible that your employer may come across your post here and use it as ammunition to fire you and hire somebody else.

Work hard, make your self look good, build a great portfolio, and find a better paying job.

If I had an employee that was putting in half the effort because he felt that he was only getting payed half of what he should, that would tell me that the employee is definitely NOT worth what he thinks he is worth.

There are no "technical solutions" to your "artistic problems".
Don't let technology get in the way of your creativity!



Return to posts index

Aaron CadieuxRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 3:29:07 pm

I actually still give 100% in my job, because I, like you, don't feel it's right to give less than that. That being said, I sometimes wish I could give less than 100% when I feel taken advantage of, but I'm sure all of us have felt that way at one time or another. In a forum moderated by mostly employers and not employees, I was not surprised by the responses to my post. But anyway, I thank you all for your input. If my boss sees my posts, so be it. Better to have an employee venting over the internet than complaining at the office and giving less than a 100% effort.



Return to posts index

Eric RansdellRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 4:36:31 pm

Aaron, basically anyone who's worth their salt in a position like yours thinks they're underpaid. And maybe the guys in the next room playing video games are jerks or maybe they're the ones who struggled to build the business, took the financial risk, mortgaged the house or whatever to get to a position to where they could afford to pay someone like you 35K a year. And that monthly nut may grow harder to meet as the economy continues its free fall.

So why not try this, take Walter's advice and learn something new, except see if you can get your employers to pay for it. Tell them you're aware times are seriously tough but you feel that you're not getting enough cash out of the time/effort you're putting in. You realize another raise is out of the question, but what if they were to invest in some training for you? Particularly in a field where your shop is weak - color correction, AE, Shake, etc. It will keep you busy during the slack times and they'll have something new they can offer clients to try and stir up more business. They'll feel like they're investing in the growth of their company and you pick up a new skill, which - once the economy stirs back to life and if you still feel they're jerks - makes you even more marketable when you walk out of there and into a new job.





FLY Films
Shanghai, China
http://www.flyfilms.com.cn


Return to posts index

Steve KownackiRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 5:05:30 pm

He lost 10% of his effort in the last few posts.

Steve



Jump to the FFP Website



View Steve Kownacki's profile on LinkedIn




Return to posts index

Aaron CadieuxRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 5:10:44 pm

Another person who assumes to know me personally. With the responses to my original post, you would think I were taking a personal shot directly at you. You guys must have a lot of employees slacking off to respond so strongly to this.



Return to posts index

John WilsonRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 5:41:39 pm

Aaron,

Many people have commented on your attitude, rightly or wrongly. I will not. It was your choice to put your thoughts out there and it seems as if you simply want someone to agree with you. Accept the fact that you are getting honest feedback, based on your words, from a lot of people who have found great success in their careers and are taking time out of their days to offer you a little perspective.

It might not be what you want to hear but if you keep an open mind and accept the feedback you will end up better off.

Cheers,

JW



Return to posts index

Aaron CadieuxRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 5:59:19 pm

I love the feedback I've gotten. It's just strange that it become personal right off the bat. The first response I got to my post was a personal shot from someone who doesn't know me. I'm not looking to hear anything specific.



Return to posts index

Steve WargoRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 9:22:23 pm

You have been "Zelinized". Please don't take it personally. He treats everyone like that. It makes the rest of us seem tepid.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .


Return to posts index

Mike CohenRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 5:43:46 pm

Many moons ago we had a guy who was a slacker. I gave him his review, indicating he would not be getting a raise. He went off on me saying I could not do his job, so why am I qualified to judge his performance? Yadda yadda yadda.

He also produced with lightning speed a printout showing what he should be paid based upon what Monster.com told him. He then went on to say he had turned down job offers for more pay.

Finally, in a meeting about changing e-mail providers, he said, and I quote, "I don't feel comfortable changing providers. A new provider would use new software. I'm 40 years old, I don't want to learn something new."

Blank stares all around.

Do a good job, get paid for the good work you do. Simple.

I know life is not often simple.

Mike


Return to posts index

Ron LindeboomRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 5:42:09 pm

[Aaron Cadieux] "In a forum moderated by mostly employers and not employees, I was not surprised by the responses to my post."

Aaron,

I have been an employee much of my life and my ethics and focus did not change whether I was the boss or working at the bottom of the pile as the grunt. It was the same, even when I was young and in college working nights as a janitor with no supervision, going to school and supporting my new family. It was hard and the work sucked. Cleaning toilets isn't glamorous, I assure you. But my boss once told me when he came by and looked at my work, that he hadn't ever seen anyone on any of his crews clean around and under and behind the toilets like I did.

Why did I do it when I knew that the others and even the guy that trained me didn't do it?

I had a sister and a Mom. I had heard them talk in the car during roadtrips about how they hated restrooms in gas stations because they were so rank. So I cleaned the restrooms in the buildings in which I worked as if my Mom and sister were going to use them.

When I was at the bottom of the pile working as a grunt, my attitude was the same as when I became the boss.

You are not qualified -- in my opinion -- to run a company and direct people, if you cannot clean a toilet well. As long as there is a difference in your mind that separates some work as worthy and honorable, and some that is not -- then you will always have a dichotomy within yourself. Far simpler to have one yardstick of performance that says that if I take a job, I do my best. Period.

If you can't do that, you will always leave a trail of work of which you are not proud and will regret having others point to.

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom

Creativity is a type of learning process where the teacher and pupil are located in the same individual.


Return to posts index

Mike CohenRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 5:55:58 pm

Any employee, whether at a production shop or K-Mart, who thinks about working less than others as some kind of revenge, or just as a matter of their personality, is called a toxic employee.
Over the years, we have had a few toxic employees. Others would be affected, saying things like "John does not work as hard as I do so maybe I'll slack off too." When this happens, the toxic folks have to go. Don't be toxic. Take the advice on this thread and stand up for yourself.

Mike


Return to posts index

walter biscardiRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 5:56:53 pm

[Aaron Cadieux] " In a forum moderated by mostly employers and not employees, I was not surprised by the responses to my post."

Not really sure what that means. This is a forum moderated by incredibly talented individuals who are freely giving of their time. I don't know how many years of experience and awards are collectively held by all of us who moderate this forum, but it would be difficult for you to find as much talent in one place who are so giving of free information and advice as the Creative Cow.

One thing you will not find in this forum is a bunch of folks who will just agree with anything anyone says. We have opinions and lots of them. Nor do the moderators agree on everything.

If you're not hearing what you want to hear, that's not what we're here for. Folks on this forum speak the truth. If what we're saying from our own experiences does not support your argument, sorry, we can't help that.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.

Read my Blog!

STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!


Return to posts index

Aaron CadieuxRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 6:02:35 pm

I love hearing what you guys have to say. I respect the opinions of everyone on this forum. Some (not all) of the first responses to my original question immediately became personal shots. Go back and read my first post, and then read the immediate responses. You can't tell me they were personal. This is a forum about business, so why not keep it "business" and not make it personal?



Return to posts index

Mike CohenRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 6:04:59 pm

I think this is a misconception on all forums. People ask a question. The responses reflect the varied personalities of the forum participants. This can come across as personal, but rest assured, we all have the best of intentions.

However we generally don't expect people to get defensive. If you ask for feedback, respond but don't take it personally.

Mike


Return to posts index

Mark SuszkoRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 8:58:39 pm

Aaron, perhaps you are over-reacting to Bob's tone. You shouldn't. Bob is exceptionally forthright with his advice, brusque or undiplomatic at times, but he's a 100 percent straight shooter and while he may be off-putting to some, I have never caught him being wrong about anything yet.

Denise and I don't know you, we just gave our best honest responses to the question you posed. Again, not personal. The title of the thread should be "Work Ethic Question", that's what it really boiled down to.

If you average out the language, pretty much everyone's post to you has been on the exact same wavelength here. This is not an EST therapy office, nobody's trying to beat up on you or make you small. Every opinion given was given as a way to offer help and counsel, counsel you asked for.

But please consider: if one person tells you something you don't like, well, it is easy enough to shrug that off, and you might very well be right to do so.

When over a dozen well-qualified people, from every walk of life, that don't know you from Adam, take time out of their day to all consistently tell you, each in their own style, the same thing, you still have the right to shrug it all off. But perhaps the better course is to just nod, take the advice in the spirit in which it was given, and take a break to go cogitate on it. Once in a while, everybody is wrong. But the good news is you can change, when you want to. You have your answer for this question, it may not be productive to keep coming back at it from another angle.



Return to posts index

Jason JenkinsRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 9:07:23 pm

[Aaron Cadieux] "Some (not all) of the first responses to my original question immediately became personal shots. Go back and read my first post, and then read the immediate responses. You can't tell me they were personal."

Aaron, you are likely referring to Bob Zelin's post. Don't take it personally –all of his posts are like that. Once you get to know Bob's personality it's actually quite funny and refreshing to read his posts.



Jason Jenkins

Flowmotion Media

Video production... with style!


Return to posts index

cowcowcowcowcow
Mark RaudonisRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 26, 2009 at 4:15:33 am

Ok. I went back and read your original post.

You are an idiot for having posted it! That's not personal... it's business!

Any employer reading this thread has now been warned about what kind of employee you'd be.
Good luck with the rest of your career.

Mark



Return to posts index

Richard HerdRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 10:39:46 pm

ask Sisyphus, the Proletariat of the Gods:










Return to posts index

Andrew KimeryRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 25, 2009 at 11:35:56 pm

Speaking as a 'worker bee' I pretty much agree w/all the advice given to you Aaron by various people already. You started a thread w/a poorly worded posted that made it sound like you were looking for people to tell you that it's okay to slack-off and it blew up in your face. Learn and move on. B*tch sessions are better had at a bar than on the internet. ;)


-A

3.2GHz 8-core, FCP 6.0.4, 10.5.5
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (6.8.1)



Return to posts index

Bob ZelinRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 26, 2009 at 4:30:02 am

Aaron,
let me tell you a little story. In 1980, I used to work for National Video Center in New York City as a video maintenance tech. All I wanted to do was to WORK HARD. I wansn't asking for a raise, I just wanted to do good work, and WORK HARD. But it was more important for the "hire ups" to give me orders, and have me follow those orders, than working hard. I would get in trouble (when I was bored and had nothing to do) when I would walk around the plant, and find that something was broken, or someone needed help with a piece of equipment. And do you know what, I got IN TROUBLE for doing this, and I eventually got FIRED from National Video Center, becuase "I didn't fit in", because I wanted to WORK HARD, and NOT take a lunch break, but because the "hire ups" didn't like this, I got fired. I was told numerous times to TAKE LUNCH, when I was working.

Your "hire ups" are playing video games while you are working hard.
Well, National Video Center went out of business, and perhaps your company will go out of business, because only YOU are working hard, while "they" are screwing around. I can tell you from experience, that while you are WORKING HARD, your bosses daughter is buying $300 jeans, and getting her first new car, when that money should be going to you. I know this is happening. I observed this over and over again in my career, and it made me angry. The bosses family will ALWAYS be more important than you, and what you deserve. This is why you should ALWAYS work hard (as you are now), and ALWAYS look out for yourself. Learn what you can, and get another job. You have responded a zillion times to this post, when you could have been looking for another job. Believe me, if you are IT savvy, and you do what you say - there are other jobs out there for you. As a business owner, every day is "looking for another job". No matter what anyone says on this forum, your boss is not going to give you the money you deserve. End of story. Find another job.

Bob Zelin




Return to posts index

Steve KownackiRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 26, 2009 at 12:12:22 pm

Do what you love, love what you do.

Nice post Bob, my first gig I was paid $5/hr for no more than 20 hours directing morning news where I directed, switched a Grass 300, ran Chyron and built graphics on the Ampex DVE/Stillstore. You couldn't slack because the news goes on. I actually worked about 60 hours because I "got into trouble" like Bob. I learned cameras, audio, graphics - I produced most of the commercials and really never got paid (easy when you live at home). But I just love this business! I left after 16 months because I was one of 2 people that got a 50-cent raise. Seriously, $0.50. But I learned none the less.

Also keep in mind that what anybody is saying here is probably read by their employees, just as employees posts are probably read by bosses.

And finally, on the note about bosses, here's a quip from my friend's blog yesterday. He's now (for 4 weeks) the CEO of a small company that outsources everything at the moment; he was formerly in marketing VP positions. Here's what he says about becoming the "boss":

I'm going to start this off with a note to my ex-bosses: I'm sorry.

For much of my career, I've had the privilege of operating at a level where I reported to Presidents and CEOs. And I now realize that mostly I was not sufficiently aware of just how much they were dealing with. I pushed and prodded and pestered to get Marketing addressed (probably not a bad thing - my job after all), but boy did I just not realize how many other things were swirling around. So to my former bosses... I apologize for that.

What makes me say that?

Well, I'm getting the full brunt of it myself. First we start with the S.O.B. - standard operational bull'dung'. (The Blake Edwards movie of that name is, incidentally, one of his best and most underappreciated efforts IMHO). I'm juggling cash flow, inventory turns, vendors, shipping expense and all the usual suspects of day-to-day operation.

On top of that, add the strategic. How do we get the message out and grow faster? How do we convey the product clearly and quickly to consumers? What's the value proposition we offer and how do we express it? What should we do with packaging? New product? and, oh yeah... marketing.


I thought that pretty much summed up, at least what I tend to deal with, much of what a boss really handles. And someone earlier posted the financial risks and others. It's a 24-hour mind thing.

Time to go make pretty pictures,


Steve



Jump to the FFP Website



View Steve Kownacki's profile on LinkedIn




Return to posts index

Chris BlairRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 26, 2009 at 4:05:21 pm

Bob Zelin wrote:

As a business owner, every day is "looking for another job


Bob (as always) hit the nail on the proverbial head. There's a huge myth in small business that rarely gets talked about.

It goes: "If you start your own company you'll be working for yourself."

The fact is, when you start your own company and become an employer, you are NOT the boss. Your clients become your boss. So you don't have just one demanding boss, you have as many demanding bosses as you have clients. Some are a joy to work for. Many are not. In many ways it's worse than being an employee, especially if you're the type that questions authority. And to be clear, I'm not talking about Aaron when I use the pronoun "you."

I'm talking in general. You have to learn to let what clients say roll off your back. You have to realize there are clients that will pay for good work and quality, and there are those that will question every single thing you charge them for and assume you're trying to screw them. You have to realize several clients will choose your unskilled, hack competitor because they can save $100 on a $4000 project by using them. Never mind the project ends up looking like crap....they've put 100 more dollars in their pocket!

I think what everybody is saying on here is: nothing will change even if you get a new job or start your own company. If you work hard and have a good attitude, good things WILL happen. It might take 2 years, it might take 20. But it will happen.



Chris Blair
Magnetic Image, Inc.
Evansville, IN
http://www.videomi.com


Return to posts index

Shane RossRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 27, 2009 at 8:07:15 am

Lisa, if you don't like your job you don't strike. You just go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way.
-- Homer Simpson

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


Return to posts index

grinner hesterRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 27, 2009 at 3:46:58 pm

while ya get what you can pay for, artists have always given what they are worth, not on their pay scale.
As long as everyone is on the same page, all is well. I once interviewed for a job where the dude ended by telling me I was over qualified. I told him that was fine and I'd just not try very hard.





Return to posts index

Ron LindeboomRe: Question of ethics
by on Feb 27, 2009 at 3:55:03 pm

[grinner hester] "I once interviewed for a job where the dude ended by telling me I was over qualified. I told him that was fine and I'd just not try very hard."

That was hilarious, Grinner.

Thanks for a morning laugh. I almost tore holes in my cheeks, I smiled so big.

Boomer




Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]