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trying to collect on a prooject

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dvproducer
trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 28, 2007 at 5:46:19 pm

Hello All,
I have a nice one for you. I am sure this will spark all sorts of comments about what went wrong with this project from day one. And please feel free to pick this entire situation apart as it will serve as an excellent example of what not to do. However, I would like some advice on how to get out of this mess now that I am here.

I was hired to produce a series of commercials for a family of car dealerships with three separate locations. The project called for three donuts (one for each of the locations) with the ability to change out the middle on a regular bases. The projects called for a lot of graphics and after effects work so the initial work to build the spots was not cheap. We also did a lot of extra taping on the lots so we would have the footage we need to update the spots.

The original deal was struck with the General Manager whom is a friend of a friend (I am sure you are all cringing at that). He agreed to my hourly and daily rates and we agreed that I would submit an invoice to him first when I received approval for the donuts and then each time we updated them. I also gave him a time estimate so he knew how much money we were talking about. At this point, there was nothing in writing.

When all three donuts were complete he gave a verbal OK and I submitted the first invoice for $4425.00. At this time he specified what he wanted to complete the middle section of two of the spots. I completed these, received the OK and submitted the second invoice for $575.00. This included billing for all three spots just to keep the accounting simple. He was leaving on vacation and decided to leave the final spot until he returned. At this point the first two spots were sent off to the local cable company and started airing.

When he returned he had a falling out with the owner and quit his job. When I next spoke with him he assured me that he had submitted the invoices for payment before he left for vacation. I was then left to deal with the new GM.

After about a month of trying to get paid, trying to get some indication of what they wanted for the third spot and trying to get a meeting with the new GM, he finally informs me that the owner wanted to change one scene in the commercials. It was shot at the old GM


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Craig Seeman
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 28, 2007 at 6:08:24 pm

Gosh, I'll bet you know most of the answers you'll get anyway with 20/20 hindsight.

You should have had a contract although even that doesn't guarantee payment.
ALWAYS get money up front whether it be 1/3 or 1/2 or some other formula.

Sometimes when I do hourly I don't have a contract but that means I get paid at the end of the day. You shoot you get paid. You do edit or graphics work you get paid that day. You can give them window dubs (I charge for that too) as proof of work done but you get paid every step of the way doing that.

Just because they say they'll pay you 2/3s doesn't mean you'll get that either. They can string you along for months.

Even winning in small claims court doesn't guarantee and if you have no paper trail they may well claim it was your friend of friend who made the promises, not them.

In addition, I'd do the donuts and spots as two separate jobs. Spots don't happen until donuts are paid for.

As a business my PRIME DIRECTIVE is to keep the business IN BUSINESS.

I'd very politely sit down with them and say that you must get paid in FULL for the donuts before doing anything else with the spots. If they want to discuss the number of spots that's a separate deal. I simply would not risk continuing to get nothing. If the 2/3s is a tolerable compromise for you then you should get THAT immediately before proceeding with any work.

In short I'd do NO FURTHER WORK unless some satisfactory amount of money hit my bank account.

NEVER allow yourself to be put in this situation again. Again I've done hourly without a contract but that means I get paid at the end of the day. With contract I always REQUIRE money up front.


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dvproducer
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 28, 2007 at 6:31:14 pm

Thank you for your feed back.

I of course have not done any additional work. and I did bill the donuts as a separate job. That is the invoice I feel they need to pay in full.. the other invoice for finishing the spots I would be willing to cut. Though the work is now complete, they are only airing the first two spots.

I typically bill as you suggest. A deposit, then I get paid when I shot, I get paid when I edit, and I leave a little behind that I then get paid on final approval before I ship tapes.

The problem with this was I wanted to make things easy on what I thought would be a big account with ongoing projects.

As I read in another one of these posts, 30 day terms should be awarded to clients after they establish a solid relationship, not as a means to get clients.

I have learned a lot from reading these posts, and I that others that are trying to build a business can learn from this one.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 28, 2007 at 6:07:56 pm

Just send them a final ten day collection notice with a threat of legal action and then take these guys to small claims court if they don't pay. You have done everything asked of you and more, and they have deep pockets. There's just no excuse for treating you badly. They will either pay you now or pay you after the judge rules in your favor.

BTW, your story reminded me of an encounter I once had with a fellow who also happened to be the general manager of a car dealership. He was so intent on proving that he knew how to wheel and deal and manipulate people that he threatened a legal suit against both me and the company I was working for at the time if we refused to accept his offer of 25-cents on the dollar for some retail video equipment he wanted to purchase.

It may sound like a generalization, but in many cases it really seems like some car dealers have been watching way too many movies about unscrupulous car dealers, and it seems they admire the characters and aspire to be just like them.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY™

A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.





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dvproducer
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 28, 2007 at 7:05:54 pm

Thank you David for you post. I have often appreciated your comments while reading other threads and it's nice to know your position on this.




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David Roth Weiss
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 28, 2007 at 7:45:19 pm

Thank you. I seldom suggest suing, but when a big company plays unfair hardball with a small business owner, it really ticks me off. And, this is just the kind of stuff that really ticks-off judges too... They just love teaching them lessons over this kind of stuff.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY™

A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.





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dvproducer
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 28, 2007 at 7:52:56 pm

It certainly pisses me off too. Like I said from a business stand point, maybe I should take the two thirds and run, but I don't want to let these guys get away with anything.

What really pisses me off, is they wanted changes made after the fact, they still haven't paid but they are still airing the commercials.

Just a warning and I wish I had a nickel for every time I read it here, don't deliver until you get paid!!


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Nick Griffin
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 28, 2007 at 8:16:54 pm

In my 12 things I learned article for the COW Magazine I wrote:

"...even though I don


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dvproducer
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 28, 2007 at 8:52:20 pm

Dear Mr. Griffin,

I don't believe I read the article, but I did enjoy your contributions to one of the cows round table pod casts.

Your comments on don't do business with people you don't trust really did strike a cord with me as this deal was just starting to go sour when I heard the pod cast.

I entered this deal with someone I did trust. Though I had never meet him before, the original GM that I dealt with seemed very honest and trust worthy and I have no issue with him. It all changed with the new GM. I don't think it was just the new GM that made this go bad but also the circumstances at the time.

As I have been building my business over the past year, these forums have proven to be an invaluable resource. I hope to be able to help other people that are going through similar situations.

So to further the discussion, I agree that them not calling me again would be an upside. I don't think I would do business with them even if they were willing to pay me upfront.

From a strict stand point I agree, money in the bank is a good thing. But this has become something more than just the money. If I don't hold them accountable, then who will. I know they want to do more commercials. What about the poor sap that comes in next?? When people get away with this type of stuff, they just keep trying to pull it. If the prevailing business models become cut your loses and run, then everyone would try this type of thing.





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Todd at Fantastic Plastic
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 28, 2007 at 9:47:15 pm

[Nick Griffin] "Far more often than not that means Don't do business with car dealers."

Sadly, that is often true, unfortunately they tend to be not a very honest sort (I say that as a grandson of a looooong-time Chevy dealer, although a very honest one).

We actually do LOADS of car dealer commercials. No, they never "make the reel," but they sure do pay the bills and come around each and every month, regular as clockwork (around the middle of the month, when all the manufacturers release their deals and incentives for the month).

I've never been burned by a car dealer, even once... BUT, I've always done it this way: we have never ever worked directly for a dealer, we have always worked for their advertising agencies. Ergo, it's not the dealer that owes me money, it's the agency. And they are all very long-time clients of ours (with many other clients, not just car dealers) so they tend to keep us paid. My theory has always been that if a dealship did not have an advertising agency in place, they weren't serious enough about advertising for me to fool with.

Unfortunately one agency buddy of mine (fortunately not a client of mine) is still owed more than $100K from a deadbeat car dealer (and is in the process of suing him).

I have also found that the higher-end the car, the more stingy the management is. Our Honda client has no problem with shoveling wheelbarrow loads of cash out for production, never even asking in advance what something is gonna cost... whereas the Porsche dealer grumbles at anything over a couple thousand bucks. Not just those two, I have several examples of that (Chevy/Ford/Isuzu/Chrysler vs. Lexus/BMW/LandRover/Jaguar).

On a side note, the cheaper the car, the better the running footage reels are too. The Buick reel looks like it was shot by Spielberg. The BMW reel?... looks like my mother shot it (no disrespect to my mom intended).

As for YOUR financial woes, we are fortunate to have only had two bad debts in 11 years of production... but once when a difficult client owed us money (a small amount, maybe a grand) it was easy beans for our attorney to just fire off a letter, with the copy of the lawsuit he intended to file (which of course he never had to). I think he charged us $150 or so for it... and it got us paid promptly. I'm not so sure that I agree with the opinion that yours is too small amount to get litigious about... it's your money, you worked for it, and deserve it.



T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com






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David Roth Weiss
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 28, 2007 at 8:24:21 pm

The paperwork in small claims court takes about an hour of your time and the court day may eat up two or three hours of your time, but you gotta figure it eats into the time of the other guys too. Any smart businessman will just pay off. They know right from wrong, but they're just trying to get something for nothing.

Go get 'em and don't accept anything except 100%. In fact, you should consider sending them a cease and desist order warning them to stop airing the commercials, and notify them that you are filing a claim in court on "x-date" and you are seeking both late fees and damages in addition to the full payment.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY™

A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.





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Craig Seeman
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 28, 2007 at 8:49:34 pm

[dvproducer] "What really pisses me off, is they wanted changes made after the fact, they still haven't paid but they are still airing the commercials. "

Airing the Commercials!!! How about suing for copyright infringement. There's been NO transfer of rights. Why the heck would any hand over finished material before payment?!

Even if you didn't collect a penny during the whole process you could have given them Window burn in or Watermarked dubs for "approval" and they'd either pay up or get nothing.

I am not a lawyer and you may certainly need one but I can't imagine how they can claim they own the copyright on anything when technically it isn't even a work for hire since they've yet to have consummated even a nominal transaction. Handing someone video does not give them the right to use the content.


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dvproducer
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 28, 2007 at 8:57:05 pm

I know. BAD, BAD BAD. A point I hope many others can learn from. Window burns are your friend. But I really trusted this guy and had built a solid relationship with him. Unfortunately, he left the company.

All of the minor fixes they asked for I did send window burns for approval. It is the original spots that were approved that they are still airing. But they have not paid me one penny. So that is one of my questions, can I get them on copyright infringement?


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Nick Griffin
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 28, 2007 at 11:20:29 pm

[dvproducer] "can I get them on copyright infringement?"

Can you? Sure. Should you? No. Don't waste any more of your time or mental energy on this hole of negativity. Get what you can and move on. Car dealers and other forms of retail are why I went headlong into B2B, Corporate and Industrial.

What hasn't been discussed, and I suspect is a central issue, is the fact that these guys have no respect for you or what you do, therefore they see no downside to them for trying to screw you. At some point it might even be a form of game for them: "Let's see just how much we can F*** with this kid." In their minds there are dozens more production companies like you who will take their work, so why give a crap about any one of them?

Todd makes a good point about working through agencies. That certainly raises the bar. But then there are bad agencies, too. Especially ones that think net 120 is fast pay. Overcoming this too is a mater of respect and appreciation of what you do.

And just to clarify: YES. There are some good car dealers out there. And there certainly are some good agencies of all sizes. Work on your sales technique and presentation skills and work on generating respect for yourself starting with your very first contact.

And, dvdproducer, if you respond directly to this post STOP CALLING ME "MR." dammit!


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dvproducer
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 29, 2007 at 12:11:33 am

Thanks Nick,

I do believe you are correct with the respect issue, and yes this may be a game to them. All the more reason I don't want them to win. If I felt they had a legitimate reason for only paying a portion of the bill then I would take it. But I think they are doing this simply because they expect me to accept a partial payment.

As far as copyright goes, I agree that would be a hole of negativity. I was wondering if I were to include the possibility in a collection letter is there any merit behind it. Mind you I don't intend on taking it that far, I think the mere threat of small claims court will suffice.




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Nick Griffin
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 29, 2007 at 12:40:37 am

Look, D (short for dvdproducer)-

They're not taking you seriously and they're not likely to take a letter from you seriously and maybe even a letter from an attorney. They know that at anytime they can simply pay the invoice and the whole thing goes away. The downside of this for you is how much time and energy you've wasted getting to that point.

You could go the copyright route, but for this amount of money WHAT AN ENORMOUS WASTE OF YOUR TIME. Get what you can and move on to POSITIVE new projects. Sometimes bad guys win. Hope that karma gets them in the end.

Here's an idea: Get someone who looks like they could be a local TV reporter and stage a stand-up -- on PUBLIC land -- in front of their dealership. It won't take long for someone from inside to come out to ask what's going on. Have your "reporter" say it's a story about local businesses who don't pay their bills ----- WAIT a minute! Bad idea. This could get YOU sued. It's far more fun to dream about stuff like this than it is to actually do it.

D, I've been where you are now. I was screwed over by a big multi-location car dealer when I was just starting out. Take my advice. Get what you can. Move on. Identify their competition and see what you can do for them.


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beenyweenies
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 29, 2007 at 3:45:03 am

Actually, the judge will be equally ticked off that dvproducer is doing business without contracts. I've heard stories of contractors/business owners suing and getting angry rants from the judge because they did work without any legal agreement.

CONTRACTS, PEOPLE, CONTRACTS! :)


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David Roth Weiss
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 29, 2007 at 3:40:24 pm

[beenyweenies] "Actually, the judge will be equally ticked off that dvproducer is doing business without contracts. I've heard stories of contractors/business owners suing and getting angry rants from the judge because they did work without any legal agreement."

While I'm not advocating working without an agreement or contract, business is in fact conducted all over the country, every day, based entirely on verbal agreements, which are recognized as binding in almost every city, state and county in the nation.

In this case, the company that ordered or "verbally contracted" for the work has been airing the commercials, but without paying the creator. That is 100% transparent to any judge as a clear violation of any "customary" business agreement, whether written or verbal. The commercials created were clearly acceptable for the purpose for which they were created, and no one does work that is acceptable enough for its intended use, but not good enough for payment.

In addition, the friend and former general manager would clearly support the filmmaker's version regarding the original verbal agreement. So, it would be difficult if not impossible for the car dealership to dispute the claim.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY™

A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.





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beenyweenies
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Dec 1, 2007 at 2:11:20 am

If you are selling copier machines there aren't many details to work out except price, so not as much need for a contract. In the video business, it's the particulars that will kill you because it's your word against the client's when it comes to budget, delivery items, who provides what, what is included in the budget and on it goes.

I hear what you're saying, but I would never, ever do a project in this field without some form of contract, even if it's a $100 job.


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beenyweenies
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 29, 2007 at 3:37:14 am

After reading your post, I couldn't wait to read other's comments before I say this:

"Now of course all this would be much easier if I had a written contract from the beginning, but I don


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Todd at Fantastic Plastic
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 29, 2007 at 4:27:43 pm

In actuality (and here's a couple of years' worth of Tort and Contract Law coming back after 20+ years to haunt me)... all a contract needs to be a legal valid and binding contract are two things: 1) an "offer," and 2) "acceptance."

If I tell Bob that I'm willing to sell him my old klunker used truck for $1000, and he says "I'll take it," we then have a binding contract. I can no longer say "Hmmm, now that I think about it, it's really worth $1500," or "Actually, I've changed my mind, I want to keep it," because we already have an "offer" and an "acceptance." It is a contract.

A verbal/handshake contract is absolutely totally without-a-doubt 100% completely legal and binding... just as if they were written in granite.

Courts find handshake agreements valid everyday.

HOWEVER...

Of course in court the difficulty comes in proving the terms of the handshake agreement. And barring the inclusion of witnesses to the agreement, it easily escalates into an unprovable "he said / she said" affair.

Get it in writing. Witnesses aren't a bad idea either.


T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com






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David Roth Weiss
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 29, 2007 at 5:02:15 pm

[Todd at Fantastic Plastic] "Courts find handshake agreements valid everyday.

HOWEVER...

Of course in court the difficulty comes in proving the terms of the handshake agreement. And barring the inclusion of witnesses to the agreement, it easily escalates into an unprovable "he said / she said" affair.

Get it in writing. Witnesses aren't a bad idea either."


Yes!!! Everything Todd says is right on the money...

BTW, watching Judge Judy is a very good primer for the realities of small claims court. As her show points out in every episode, it certainly helps to have right on your side, but documentation and credible "live" witnesses are really the keys to victory. Judges are not nearly as impressed with affidavits or written testimony. If a credible live human being accompanies you to court and is willing to back up your version of events, that is very meaningful to most judges. If you have two or three live human beings so much the better. If your opponent is all alone you will win the vast majority of cases.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY™

A forum host of Creative COW's Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.





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Mark Suszko
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 29, 2007 at 6:02:20 pm

IANAL,(to my mom's everlasting sorrow), but I believe it is offer, acceptance, and "consideration", i.e. some actual money changed hands.

You can prove that with xerox copies of the partial payment checks. I once won against a deadbeat cheating client because of that principle. He claimed the contract was void, never in effect but I proved he'd gone ahead and abided by it, paying for services, then suddenly stopping. Too late for him. Had he never paid a cent, he'd have had a better case, but proveable, partial payment sealed his doom with the judge, who then let us garnish his bank accounts.

While I think small claims could be worth pursuing, can I suggest one more "negotiating" tactic: your own version of the garage mechanic's lien.

Call the station that airs the spots and ask to talk to their legal department about the fact that they are running copyrighted stuff without your permission, and that you really dont want to drag the station into the middle of a payment dispute with one client...

See: if you can get the station to not run the spots, THAT is going to get immediate attention from the car dealer. He sees himself winning all the way on this if he can still run your spots and bring in customers all at the same time he's stringing you along on payment. It's like he's getting the ads - and the customers they bring in - for free.

Your truest leverage with a guy like this is that he is on a deadline to have something, and he wants what you have, and will have to give you what you want if you are to hand it over by that deadline. A Cash On Delivery service.

If you can get the station to suspend running those spots, (even if their only motivation is that THEY get to bill the guy to remake spots instead) the dealer either has to pay you fast to clear this up and stop losing customers, or he has to pay somebody ELSE to make a new spot, which he also doesn't want to do unless it's cheaper than paying you the outstanding balance. Plus you KNOW the station has a solid contract and is going to keep billing him for unused airtime spot or no spot, so you're putting the guy in a pincer between the two of you.

Those kinds of guys do this kind of math in their head for every transaction and decision in daily life. We don't have to because we don't see everything in the world in terms of it's immediate utility to us. We have learned and internalized a moral code of ethics and conduct and we have our religious tenets or philosophies as our moral guides. They don't. It is all a zero-sum-game to them so you have to make this a mathematical argument, not a legalistic or even a moralistic one.

Numbers are your best weapon on these guys. Interfere with the bottom line, and they will pay you to go away. And pay quickly.





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Nick Griffin
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 29, 2007 at 6:45:02 pm

[Mark Suszko] "Call the station that airs the spots and ask to talk to their legal department about the fact that they are running copyrighted stuff without your permission, and that you really dont want to drag the station into the middle of a payment dispute with one client..."

I guess it was inevitable that Mark Suszko would come up with something with which I totally disagree and with this post it has happened. Mark's suggestion might work in the very short term and might work in a vacuum, but it also might be very bad for the long term success of your business.

Don't contact the station's sales or legal department. First, they won't be on your side, they'll be on their own side. Second they'll be on the side of the guy who gives them money -- the car dealer. He probably has for years and probably will for years to come.

While it's possible that the station may go along with what you're asking, it will likely be after you've had to engage an attorney to convince them you're serious. They will also, from that point forward, have you pegged as a trouble-maker -- someone who makes their primary business of selling airtime MORE DIFFICULT. Can you hear what the station's sales people might say? "Sure there are several decent production companies around town, but stay away from DVDProducer because he's hard to work with. I heard he had a fight with another of our advertisers and you don't want to get in the middle of something like that."

Get whatever money you can get and MOVE ON.



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Mark Suszko
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 29, 2007 at 7:45:29 pm

You yourself said it could work, Nick, nobody specified it had to avoid collateral damage....:-)

I disagree with my esteemed colleague in that the station is to be feared. Stations forgive all, as long as invoices are paid timely and complete. Stations usually have very good lawyers on call and these guys make sure the station's contracts are solid. So you are not likely to see them have the same problems as D here.

I take the position that if the car crook is scamming the producer, he's probably already not a favorite client of the Tv station either, because likely he's also stringing them along as far as he can.

D making himself a "problem" for the station could be mitigated by the fact the station can use the excuse to upsell the car dealer on new spots... and there is no reaason D could not work with the station to do those spots with an apropriate markup... so the station wins either way. The station itself becomes the final bottleneck to the car dealer getting what he wants: airtime.

Finally, if we're talking about word of mouth, you must also consider what kind of rep he'd have if the market knows he's a pushover. Either way with the car guy, this guy's not getting much of a referral for other business. His house could become Grinder Central, with every client thinking they can get stuff and not pay.

Yes, he can walk away from this now, and chalk it up to tuition in the school of life. Nobody would fault him for that. That's probably the Christian thing to do.

But if you are going to fight, then I say you fight with everything you got, or don't fight at all.





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Mark Suszko
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 29, 2007 at 7:57:22 pm

And just one more point on that: what matters with my ploy is that the car dealer *thinks* he could lose access to airing the spots. Just the bluff that you could mess up his access could be enough. Like I said, it is all a game of numbers to these types, so like Keanu in "Speed", you have to "change the equation".


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dvproducer
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 29, 2007 at 9:00:24 pm

I do have at least limited support from the sales exec. at the station. The dealership had signed a long term contract at a very good price, so I think the station would be happy to get out of it.

I told the station that if I don't get a check with in 10 days that I will insist the the dealership pulls the spots. The station said they would back me on that.

They could start airing an older commercial.

You are right that I don't want to be known around town as a trouble maker, but I don't want grinders lining up at my door.




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Mark Suszko
Re: trying to collect on a prooject
on Nov 29, 2007 at 10:17:21 pm

Be sure you are really nice, reasonable and easy talking to the station guy, and think about a tactful way to suggest that they can sub out some production to you if they need to.

Station then tells car guy they can't run your old spots. You'll either get paid or not for them if the car guy likes them enough to get them "out of hock". If it's a "no" for that, then the station will offer to make him some new spots. They either then do that themselves (no big loss to you) or you volunteer to do them for the station (because you have all this raw footage ready to go) for a small markup and revenge, served cold with an invoice the STATION will now collect for you.

They and you would probably want to send a different guy to shoot new inserts and stand-ups, though, otherwise the grift is revealed:-)

("I love it when a plan comes together... let's drive, B.A.")



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