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A question of pulling the thread?

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mark raudonis
A question of pulling the thread?
on Aug 11, 2007 at 5:13:20 pm

What happened to the thread about "no women in post"? It seems to have disappeared.

I thought it was one of the most honest and interesting discussions I've seen on the cow in a long time. And, Ron, your explanation was straightforward, detailed and on point. Good for you!

It really irks me when I see someone make a sweeping statement that I know is not necesarily true. There were an overwhelming number of responses that questioned the validity of her claims. I can certainly add to that list with my own personal experiences.

But, more to the point, I would encourage you NOT to shy away from these kinds of threads. Any reasonable person with experience in this industry can see that her point of view is not the way it is in many, many areas of the business.

Embrace the conversation. Don't hide it.

Mark Raudonis



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Ron Lindeboom
Re: A question of pulling the thread?
on Aug 11, 2007 at 5:30:11 pm

We got a lot of mail asking us to kill the thread, Mark.

Like you, I thought it was one of the most straightforward broo-ha-has in the COW in a long time.

I think it stepped over the line when the original poster turned it into personal attacks on one of the guys -- and it went downhill from there, fast.

Like you, I would have rather kept it online but many seemed to be offended by it and wanted it gone. Also, some seemed to blindly buy into the argument without really weighing the evidence either for or against the claims.

In the end, I think Kathlyn said it best when she read the thread and refused to get involved, saying that it seemed like it might have been a case of lunar or maybe other cycles and all...

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom


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Kathlyn Lindeboom
Re: A question of pulling the thread?
on Aug 11, 2007 at 6:01:43 pm

Personally, I thought all of the guys who posted were very balanced. I don't usually get into these frays, but I do read them.

However, here's the bottom line:
We have had VERY few women volunteer to be leaders here. The men have. They give freely of their time, communicating ideas and helping many who may even be their competitors.

The few women who have volunteered, eventually get too busy and leave. The only woman that has volunteered and actually has participated over the years, is Marisu Fronc. Thank you for not leaving me all alone with the boys, Marisu. ;o)

I meet a lot of women at trade shows and when I give them the spiel in answer to "So, what is CreativeCOW?" most often the reply is what can you do for me? Or what do you pay? I have never gotten that response from a man I meet at the trade shows.

And this is how the leadership team is selected:
I watch for people who are answering lots of questions -- with good, helpful answers. A lot of members have user names that don't point to the sex of the individual, so when I write them to invite them to be leaders, I don't even know if they're male or female.

Occasionally, people write me to ask if they can be leaders -- and I check the numbers -- if they actively participate, then they're considered, if I have a leadership position available. It's not just about numbers though, because I take a look at the kinds of answers that people give. Are they helpful or are they obnoxious and rude to people?

And people over the years have come and gone. Most of those people that are up top in this forum have been with us for years. Many have supported us over the years and we've come to be personal friends.

People who get busy and stop participating are usually removed after they've been inactive for a few months. If there are extenuating circumstances and we know about it, and they want to stay, then accommodations are often made.

But everyone has to respect one another, that is the Number One rule around here.



Kathlyn Lindeboom
The Mistress of Mmmooooo!


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Jacki in Atlanta
Re: A question of pulling the thread?
on Aug 11, 2007 at 11:44:08 pm

For the record, I feel that not one or two, but THREE messages were posted with some relevance, but also a definite air of attack by one poster. I'm a little surprised I'm seen as starting a personal attack when I sent very short replies with bite IN REPLY, obviously as a joke. My sense of humor has gotten me in trouble before and I'm sure it will again but it won't be here.

But what I did gain was a better understanding of why women avoid situations where they are greatly outnumbered.





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Mark Suszko
Re: A question of pulling the thread?
on Aug 12, 2007 at 2:12:10 am

I have found that having a daughter as well as sons has done wonders for my appreciation of and antagonism towards artificial limits on gender roles. My daughter is brilliant, talented and creative and whatever she wants to try her hand at, she better by heaven get an equal chance to try or mom and dad both are kicking the door down. She's already been in various PSA's and promo spots of mine, her current one is the girl in the pool at this site: http://www.ichooseinb.com. She wants me to win the camcorder so we can shoot more projects together:-)

We get school kids thru our studios on tours every once in a while. I have handled these for years, we have some greenscreen fun, and we let the kids try out and rotate thru various crew positions over and over until everybody's tried everything once. I also do a little one on one with each kid, letting them try to shoulder a broadcast camera for one thing. I always made a point of telling the girls not to worry about the camera being heavy, because they keep getting smaller and lighter. I also tell them about the 2-3 female ENG shooters working in my market. I explain that air talent is ony one aspect of the job and there is a lot more to be done: that one of my early director-trainers was a woman, many of our interns went on to work behind the scenes as producers or editors or directors at O&O stations in major markets, or staffers for DC comics, or places like that. And so on.

It's selfish, of course. I'm making sure my own daughter will have room if she wants to try this in the future.


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Tim Wilson
Re: A question of pulling the thread?
on Aug 12, 2007 at 2:18:02 am

[Jacki in Atlanta] "But what I did gain was a better understanding of why women avoid situations where they are greatly outnumbered."

Actually, we have a significant number of women posting at The COW, far more than I've ever seen in other tech forums. My guess at the blogs, where we have real names, is that women represent around 30% of the registrations.

As a result, our experience is that women here feel quite free indeed to post, and do every day. ANY political discussion -- including gender politics -- risks becoming personal, which is why discourage them.

Apart from any specific content, the tone of the original subject line was provocative, and did indeed provoke. As I noted offline, there's no need for that, as the people here aren't afraid to address anything. :-)

We are once again veering well off the topic of business and marketing, so I'm going to request that this wind down please.

However, if somebody cares to try again, keeping the conversation firmly focused on business and marketing, go for it. On topic, and off personal please.

Your pal,
Tim



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walter biscardi
Re: A question of pulling the thread?
on Aug 12, 2007 at 2:22:33 am

[Jacki in Atlanta] "I'm a little surprised I'm seen as starting a personal attack when I sent very short replies with bite IN REPLY, obviously as a joke. My sense of humor has gotten me in trouble before and I'm sure it will again but it won't be here."

Accusing someone of going through a divorce and being on drugs is a personal attack. There is no sense of humor in statements like those.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.

All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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Jacki in Atlanta
Re: A question of pulling the thread?
on Aug 12, 2007 at 12:37:54 pm

Well, Walter, since this is an internet forum and I've never met the man or even spoken with him, I think it would be implied that I do not know his marriage status or chemical pathology. I'm an intuitive Pisces, but not exactly psychic.

I do think you are being overly zealous in repremanding me multiple times. You got to list your accomplishments here for the 900th time and said you were through with the thread but keep coming back to put me in my place.

Consider me in my place. I was wrong to start the topic and there is nothing strange and there are no changes that need to be made by either of the sexes in the world of production between the status of men and women.

Now I'm GPU card shopping so you are all welcome to carry on without me on the topic.



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walter biscardi
Re: A question of pulling the thread?
on Aug 12, 2007 at 3:16:03 pm

[Jacki in Atlanta] "
Well, Walter, since this is an internet forum and I've never met the man or even spoken with him, I think it would be implied that I do not know his marriage status or chemical pathology. I'm an intuitive Pisces, but not exactly psychic."


I'm sorry Jacki, I just can't let comments like these addressed to Steve Wargo be laughed off.

Eeechhh. Somebody is going through a divorce maybe?

Not going through a divorce? Hmmm...Maybe you need to ask your babe to go to the drug store to pick up that prescription you have recently stopped taking because apparently you really need it.

There is absolutely nothing remotely humorous in either statement. They're quite hateful to be honest.


[Jacki in Atlanta] "Consider me in my place. I was wrong to start the topic and there is nothing strange and there are no changes that need to be made by either of the sexes in the world of production between the status of men and women."

You were not wrong to start the topic. You were wrong to make hurtful personal comments to people who posted a response.


[Jacki in Atlanta] "I do think you are being overly zealous in repremanding me multiple times."

As long as you think your comments were made in some sort of a humorous fashion, I don't think so.

But I believe I've made enough statements on this topic. As Tim says, it's more important to discuss actual business and marketing topics in this forum.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.

All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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Joe Rugby
Re: A question of pulling the thread?
on Aug 13, 2007 at 4:10:28 pm

All sorts of things can get you down or make you feel downtrodden in this Life of ours, and things can make you feel really good too, whether business or personal.

I suggest a taking a little time to listen to Louis Armstrong's
"What a Wonderful World"...

...Then put a smile on your face and do the best the person you are, can do.

Business & Marketingly Yours,

Joe



L.O.A.


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walter biscardi
Re: A question of pulling the thread?
on Aug 13, 2007 at 4:44:42 pm

[Joe Rugby] "I suggest a taking a little time to listen to Louis Armstrong's
"What a Wonderful World"...

...Then put a smile on your face and do the best the person you are, can do."


That's a wonderful idea! Nothing like a little Satchmo to make anyone feel good. The classics baby, they never go out of style. :-)

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
http://www.biscardicreative.com
HD Editorial & Animation for Broadcast and independent productions.

All Things Apple Podcast! http://cowcast.creativecow.net/all_things_apple/index.html

Read my blog! http://blogs.creativecow.net/WalterBiscardi


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beenyweenies
Re: A question of pulling the thread?
on Aug 15, 2007 at 6:47:25 am

Personally I think your frustrations, while perfectly valid, are aimed in the wrong direction. The case has been made that the lack of female participation here is due to lack of interest from women, plain and simple. If that irritates you or makes you feel like the Cow is less because of it, why not recruit some of your female friends to participate? When you get down to it, there's nothing any of us can do short of being encouraging and inviting. I think this site does an excellent job on both fronts.

And as a side note, if you feel attacked it might be because no answers, no matter how sincere (or true) have seemed to satisfy you. I get the feeling we are all trying to make the same point using different wording in hopes that you will get the message - want more of X on the Cow? Make it so!

Brendan Coots

Splitvision Digital

http://www.splitvisiondigital.com


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Jacki in Atlanta
Re: A question of pulling the thread?
on Aug 13, 2007 at 10:19:23 pm

Again, not related to business, sorry, but late last Tuesday night I was accousted by three men in a parking lot and got away unharmed, just quite scared. Thursday night I posted my frustrations about being "surrounded" by men on here. I just put it together when I read Joe's reply and I was also called for details again earlier today... Coincidence, probably not.

I think the topic is a valid point in general, but completely pointless to post about in a mostly male forum or anywhere, really.


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Mike_S
Re: A question of pulling the thread?
on Aug 14, 2007 at 12:45:18 pm

Sorry about your bad experience in the parking lot.

Isn't it odd how things like that, aggression and bad karma, can grow, spread, spill out, when very few people want to be part of that?

As a man, I remember the shock I felt when I realized, as I walked down a quiet suburban street late evening, coming from the subway, that the woman walking maybe 100 yards in front of me was scared of me. (I had to slow, go back a way, cross the road - let her get right out of her sense of danger.)

A lot of guys play fair, do the right thing (by our own lights, granted), want to be the good guy. But if we let it, it only takes a very few to poison things. And that spark, in my experience, can come from men, or from women.

If we sit in the room and let one person crack offensive, racist, sexist or whatever remarks, or abuse the office junior or the support staff (one broadcast exec of my acquaintance over here, female, is notorious for that - it's really not only guys), do we become complicit?

Hope you find the space you're looking for.


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