Here is a an ad and reply I got today...
Here is a an ad and reply I got today that is a good example.(edited to conceal personal info)
"Video Editor wanted
Looking for editor that is familiar with Sony Vegas. Don't wanna hear from you unless you know Sony Vegas and know it well. Repeat; not interested in hearing how well you can cut with FCP, Avid, Premiere, or any other application. If your reel wasn't cut in Vegas, we're not interested in seeing it. Both our server and our client are heavily centered around the media management found in Sony's software.
We do long-form HD projects. If you don't have your own computer, we can provide, but we'd prefer to provide HDD's of raw content and you will edit our content. Telecommuting from or surrounding area is acceptable; we need you in-studio at least one day per week."
We are looking for someone local, and the remuneration for the work we're wanting isn't enough to motivate anyone to move . We're looking for an intern-type person looking to deepen their connections and abilities in the industry, cutting corporate pieces together for us. Budget is very limited . but hope it finds us some young, new, and inexpensive talent.
Thank you for your email, and good luck with your job hunting.
Now the original ad asked specifically for an "esitor" who is experienced only who "knows it well". They want a reel , but then say they want an intern entry level person. Anyone knows this is impossible to expect an entry level person to a reel from lack of experience and being in school. An intern is someone who attends school and works part time for free in exchange for school credits and the chance to learn on the job. The school gets a free teacher and the employer gets free labor. Any employer hiring someone as an intern who is not in school is just exploiting people for free labor and personal benefit. Some will argue that a person can choose to work for free to get their foot in the door. True, but employers should not be able to advertise for this free work and I am telling everyone that this practice to sol;icit free labor is out of control and it will affect you in the near future in a negative way. The majority if ads are not of thids nature, not as much on the COW though because there are very few ads posyed each week on the COW compared to other forums.
They also want this intern to have their own equipment. They want to hand this person a disk full of raw media and "edit" at their own place if needed and show up once a week. I highly doubt there are any interns out there that will ever be able to do all of this. What about the quality of the product from an entry level person who is left alone? I would not want any of my clients expecting high quality HD projects left to the hands of an entry level person. How long would this person take to "try" and do it? Add those hours up and compare it to a pro with experience doing it in a day instead of possibly two weeks. Plus, no one is also taking in to consideration that all the older pros out there are not demanding high salaries. Just something reasonable. Plus the kid can live at home and the older pro has a family to feed. Which leads to waht are YOU going to do with a world full of millions of 50+ people who CANNOT find any work. Fact, they cannot even get jobs at Home Depot these days.
Pleae do not try and nit pick this apart on small little segmants. The message here is typical, loud and clear. It is very wrong and you will eventually see unless things are changed and laws are enforced. An editor can be 19 and a good editor for low pay can also be 60. And a 60 year old can also unload a truck in a good amount of time. Mayne get your truck there 10 minutes earlier so an old lady can unload it, too. I can't believe all the narrow low blow reasons being presented to justify age discrimination.
Welcome to the "democratized" production industry. a zillion production companies and a zillion outlets makes for commodity-priced work product unfortunately.
Also, many new production entities simply don't understand the realities of maintaining a staff capable of a reasonable quality work product.
Ah well...keep looking. Somewhere there is a real job. I don't know how many there are that will be this intensively Vegas-oriented, but stick with it.
It doesn't sound like this would be much of a job for anyone out of high school who needs to make some sort of living anyway. The company probably wouldn't be the greatest culture either by the looks of it.
Creative Cow Host,
I am not sure how my post was moved over to here when it was originally submitted to the War of the Worlds, Old Fogies vs. Young Idiots thread we had going.
The point I was making was not about me getting the job, but the way people post an ad and then change what they really said to find people to work for low pay/no pay. The first two sentences in the ad are completely contradicting.
"Looking for editor that is familiar with Sony Vegas. Don't wanna hear from you unless you know Sony Vegas and know it well."
"Familiar with" goes to "know it well". An requesting an "Editor" gets a reply saying they want an "intern".
In the original post the other day, a person says young and then he later changes it to young at heart becuase of possible legal matters. Would the employer like it if some youngster accepted the job and then did not show up becuase he changed his words to mean something else? I appreciate the fact that the poster apologized, but what about all the other fifty to one hundred people who posted in all the pro job forums in this manner the same day?
It appears that the current day editor is being pushed back down to the basement like hollywood did to the women who were the first editors in the early film days. I do understand that the industry needs interns and entry level people, but not almost all of the jobs.
COW, please put this post back in the original thread to maintain continuity of the subject
I put this here as it opened up a new spin on the same can of worms that better fit a new thread and would generate more discussion as a new thread. Appending it to the thread below would have likely seen this draw little to no interest. (We've just been doing this for 12 years now and we have learned a bit about the rhythym and flow of this kind of thing.)
Editorial prerogative belongs to the COW; if that offends you, read our policies.
That's fine with me. Just a little surprised at first.
I forgot to add that I talked with Tim Wilson today and I am happy to see there are now two additional forums for low pay and jobs wanted.
Yes, they were long overdue. Glad you like 'em. ;o)
IMHO there are producers out there who have little or no respect for editors. They don't know -- and don't care to know -- about the art and craft of editing and what it is that editors contribute to a show.
In their limited understanding of the process, they believe that editors are there only to cut out the junk stuff. They don't see how good editors can build a compelling story out of a pile of raw material.
Since they don't understand the value of the work, that affects how much they're willing to pay for it. I just had first-hand experience of that in our small company where one of our former partners (and show host) expressed zero respect for what it is his partners did as editors. He felt it was a purely mechanical process. We were trying to get him to appreciate the importance of good editing in making an entertaining product but never got very far. This guy had his opinions set in stone.
This individual never spent a single moment with either of us to see what it is that we did. And we spent thousands of hours over the past couple of years building episodes for our show. It's not exactly Emmy material, but it still gets its fair share of an audience and is, in fact, the highest-rated show for that channel.
In the end, this former partner went his own merry way and created his own show on another channel. After watching a few episodes, what we expected is being confirmed: His new show has no sense of anticipation. There's no buildup. And when the fun begins, it doesn't provide the viewer with a sense of vicarious participation. And comments from viewers on other public forums agree with our own private assessment. It's dry.
This guy had to hire cheap, inexperienced labor. The technical and aesthetic shortfalls proved it.
That's the kind of producer that specifically seeks out inexperienced people who have their own gear. They can't afford to build up a well-equipped suite -- even if they knew how. And they certainly can't afford to hire skilled editors. All they think they need is someone to chop out the junk stuff. And, sadly, they can't see the difference between a compelling segment and a lifeless one.
In the long run, and in a market like ours here, sponsors are less likely to support a program like that because it presents their product to a diminishing audience. Cheap begets cheap and, soon enough, it brings about its own demise.
Dean Sensui -- Imagination Media Hawaii
Today my local Craigslist also has an internship position available immediately. They want someone with a 3 chip digital cam to shoot 12-15 hours of nature footage up to 4 hours out of town...edit it into a 90 minute sequence to their specs. If they accept it it may lead to more contract work with royalties...
Boycott is the act of voluntarily abstaining from using, buying, or dealing with someone or some other organization as an expression of protest.
But a boycott of 100 people doesn't work if one person cooperates. I'm amazed that kids cooperate for these kinds of schemes...I guess its that young eager desire to get started in the biz.
Of course, I also see things differently since my corporate job description was revised when I turned 50. I was told I could apply for the new job if I wanted to compete for it. I decided to take the severance pay and went into business for myself. Now I make less money (for the time being) but I write the job descriptions...
Of course, I could probably make more money if I could get some young and eager kids to work for free...
[Gary Chvatal] "Of course, I could probably make more money if I could get some young and eager kids to work for free."
You say that as if it's a bad thing...
you can't see that is bad?? you will later if it continues to exist and grow. Be part of the solution instead of helping the problem. Maybe your clients will make you work for free and see how long you think it is okay. :-)
Man, you really do know it all, don't you? I'm glad that you can read the minds of those you don't know, have spent no time with, and therefore have nothing but your imagination to draw upon. But hey, don't let that stop you.
I work nice hours, have for years. I don't work for free. I don't chase prospects with pro bono work as it only leads to more pro bono work.
Think what you wish, you seem quite good at it, really.
How much research have you done Mark? I have spent seven years so far researching the issue. I am trying to produce a doc on the subject. When and if you catch up to where I am at on the facts, then your accusations might carry some weight. I also do not appreciate you turning the issue on hand into personal insults. Try to stay on the subject matter only.
Personally, Mark, I don't claim to be doing research. I am probably just old enough to be your dad and have been working in this industry for 35 years now.
The fact remains that Hollywood is shipping jobs. Many of the reasons have to do with money. Many of those reasons can be found in the high costs of using union workers who are not only expensive but are often prima donnas. I have read plenty of interviews back when Hollywood first began running to Canada and one of the common threads was that the Canadians actually were excited to be working on the project. They found the attitude refreshing. If that's what they were saying publicly, I wonder what the translation would have been privately?
If that is more than you want to hear, don't read my posts.
It never ceases to amaze me hoe so many people want so much for free or for next to nothing.
I used to work for an employer who wanted an experienced editors at next to no pay. And or course all the time he was padding his own wallet, purchasing a new car and a nice big house. A coworker there also rented a place from him and had to borrow money from his in-laws because the boss would not even pay him enough to make rent. When asked about this all he would say is thats life. Needless to say when I was let go because he couldn't afford to make payroll I was not disappointed, I already looking for work. He also got ticked off because he had to pay unemployment.
He just never understood that to keep skilled editors he needed to pay more them McDonalds.
This was my first editing job out of college, and as I look back I am actually grateful that I worked there. I did get some experience under my belt, and I did learn a lot about how a business should be run, because his business practices were horrible. And I mean HORRIBLE. How he has made it in this business so long I don't know.
When buying a car if you asked for a Lexus and only were willing to pay for a old rusty truck with out a engine the dealer would laugh at you. I think we should do the same.
You get what you pay for, if you will only pay little to nothing then you will get little to noting of value in return.
"It never ceases to amaze me hoe so many people want so much for free or for next to nothing."
Do those two magic words: Wal and Mart cast any light on your amazement? Do you buy your DVD's there, or at Sam's? The days of making an honest buck for an honest days work are becoming harder and harder to find. And as GA is learning, "Life's not fair". Never has been, never will be. Period. We arrived here on planet earth with nothing and that's how we'll leave. The time spent in between is our own choosing, hopefully not with some jerk employer or craigslist huckster who, no doubt, has ocean front property in Arizona at a real bargain. In the immortal words of somebody lots brighter than myself: GET OVER IT!
Remember, the number to call is BR-549.
Oh I am over it. I now how a great job making more then that old employer ever will pay somebody (despite all his empty promises)
I do not think that your wall-mart comparison really fits quite well. Wall-mart buys there products in bulk keeping the costs down. Video production douse not come in bulk. At wall-mart all there products are pre-made, they do not sell custom bikes in the bike. In video production it is a custom thing man.
Once the person who was asking for the "free" work get there product and realize that it is not the quality that they wanted hopefully they will have to pay to get a quality professional video made.
You know, alot of people are wigging about Craigslist having crap ads. I get it, they suck. The only times I ever look at Craigslist TV jobs forum is if I need a good laugh. It's not just relegated to the tv jobs forum - I'd say most o f the jobs on there are crap, ego filled, noxious posts made by people who have no idea about much of anything.
My favorites are the ones that go something like this:
Award winning director seeks producer for high-budget movie production. Producer should provide investors who recognize quality when they see it. Producer should also have access to script writers and hot screenplay for me to direct. Also seeking production facility (editor, equipment, crews) to work pro-bono for screen credits and industry respect. Also looking for hotshot young assistant director capable of dealing with mundane directing aspects such as: instructing talent on set, keeping crew motivated, generating ideas, and passion for the film. Sincerely, Michael Bay.
Oh wait, the last part I made up (or did I?).
By the way guys, since I'm the 'kid' here, I've updated my profile picture accordingly.
John Davidson____ writer | producer | director____http://www.magicfeather.tv
Well this kind of "want sumthin' for nuthin'" crap has been going on since the beginning of the production business, and probably since the beginning of time. And probably always will.
It's definitely not the way I like to work. I pay my senior editior probably $15,000 or so more a year than I have to. But I do it for a variety of reasons. It keeps him happy. It keeps him from looking for another job (and creating a headache for me). But mostly because he simply deserves it.
But you know what? I don't really mind it where I hear of the "other guys" soliciting "free labor." Because I know they get what they pay for, and it's just one of the reasons that our work looks so much better than theirs... that we stay booked up months in advance while their place is a ghost town. When you get right down to it the amount that we pay our editor for an hour of his time is a small fraction of what we charge a client for that same hour... so it really would be false economy to hire someone "young and hungry" who would work for peanuts.
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
Yes, this is getting more common these days and I find it repulsive to "bait and switch" for free talent. If you don't want to pay artists, then don't charge clients.
As a partner in a studio and someone who deals with hiring creatives all the time, I will say this - It cuts both ways and there is a bit of a pricing war going on. Sure there are some studios that want free labor, but the flip side is that there are a lot of artists out there who are still clinging to the old days when anyone who could do computer-based creative work was able to command an extremely high salary. These individuals are completely put off by the notion that pay rates are going down, and act as if the studios are trying to rob everyone blind. But there is downward price pressure from the top down. The investors want the company to trim marketing costs, so the company wants the ad agency to bid lower, who then want the studios to deliver the work for less, who then lower their pay rates. That downward pressure affects us all, especially as new technologies lower the bar of entry and thousands of new artists flood the market each day.
My hope is that the downward movement will stop. It will require the studios/agencies to put their collective foot down and say ENOUGH, because most of this downward pressure comes from large companies with more than enough money, they just want to squeeze everyone dry in the name of a .02% profit increase. They too might need to tell their investors enough is enough.