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A query about Absolute Positioning

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Simon Matthews
A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 19, 2013 at 12:42:35 pm

Hi, I'm really new to HTML and I have started to design a website for myself. I designed a home page which looks ok on my screen. I used position:absolute for all of the content (logo, pictures and links) and was wondering whether it was ok to do this or whether the layout would change depending on the resolution or aspect ration of the different devices it could be viewed on? For instance, 200 pixels from the left of the screen may be closer to the centre on a standard definition screen than on a high definition screen, so would this mean that the layout of individual elements would get messed up in relation to other elements? Hope I explained that right! :-)

Thanks.


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 19, 2013 at 6:52:46 pm

hello...

no - absolute positioning is absolute - it will be 200px from the left no matter what.

in general you want to avoid doing this - there are usability reasons mainly, in that a user might have vision problems or want to see text larger, and if you have your entire site positioned exactly, that will make a mess if they try to make the font larger.

w/o seeing the site, i can't offer much more detail, but i hope that answers your question?

sitruc


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 19, 2013 at 7:10:22 pm

Thanks, but wouldn't 200px from the left of a screen that is only 1000px wide (for example) be closer to the centre than 200px from the left of a screen that is say 2000px wide? I mean, if I have a wrapper with a width of 900px positioned 200px from the left, this would look centred on my screen, but on a screen with a higher amount of pixels on the horizontal, wouldn't this mean that the wrapper would not be centred?

I think I've worked out a better way now though, and that is by having a wrapper that is positioned relative and then centred using margin-left:auto and margin-right:auto, and then I've used position:absolute for the elements inside the wrapper. I've uploaded a screenshot of the web page, which isn't published. I haven't uploaded pictures to this site before so not sure if I did it correctly.

I think I need to do a lot more research into positioning things yet! Very early days for me! :-)



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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 19, 2013 at 7:27:37 pm

hello...

well - yes if you go from the other side then ya something 200px from the left will be closer to the right if the right is less than more. but absolute is absolute. if you say "put this 200px from the top and 100px from the left" then that is where it will stay no matter what the user does.

centering a single div and then having your content in that is very standard. however within that centered div, based on what i'm seeing as your design, you have no need to position things absolutely. items will layout top to bottom on their own, so you can just specify widths of 100% for the logo block, the nav bar and the image beneath that and then they will just fill the width of the parent relative div. then for the items below that, you can set widths of 66% and 34% (or px widths - your choice) and then float the left one to the left and the right one to the right. no need to position them absolutely either...

absolute positioning is something you should use pretty rarely in general.

make sense? it does take some practice to get it right. here's a tutorial on floating that might be a good one to study up on:

http://css.maxdesign.com.au/floatutorial/tutorial0801.htm


sitruc


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 19, 2013 at 8:49:43 pm

Thanks, that sounds like good advice. I think I understand what you're saying. I'll have a go at laying the page out using that method instead.

One thing though, using this method of positioning elements, how do you position things on top of other things, such as with the social media icons on my page, which are positioned on top of the right hand side of the logo block? Incidentally, the logo, the grey area behind the nav bar, and the grey area down the bottom along with the paragraph and 'check it out' text, are all one image on my page, then I've just positioned the social media icons, the nav bar, the banner and the video on top of that single image. But even if the elements were all separate, I'd still need to position the social media icons on top of the logo background, so was wondering how that was done?

I'll take a look at the tutorial link.

Thanks again!


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 19, 2013 at 9:34:36 pm

hello...

well - you have a few options - in the case of your site, i'd make the triangle logo one image and then set up your top bar with a bg image of the rest of the bg, a div with no float that has the logo, and then a div that is floated right that has a width of 40% or so and then you can align the social media images in that div with align center or right or whatever. you can end up getting them in a very fixed (absolute, but not the literal setting here) that will always be the same using margins on the parent div...

so something like (note i have styles here in the tag, but you'd have them in a css file somewhere):


<div style="width:100%;height:80px;background:#000url(/images/header_bg.jpg)no-repeatlefttop;">
<div style="float:right;width:40%;height:25px;margin:10px20px00;">
<!--put icons in here -->
</div>
<div>
<!--put logo in here -->
</div>
</div>
<div style="width:100%;height:30px;">
<!-- nav bar elements -->
</div>
<!-- rest of page -->


again that's just a model, you'd have to adjust to taste...but that's the idea...

absolute isn't wrong per se, it's just nice to have a more flexible layout...

sitruc


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 19, 2013 at 9:36:26 pm

ugh - spaces inbetween styles are being eaten...you'd have to put those back. sorry about that.


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 9:20:23 am

Hi, thanks for all this!

Just need to clarify a few things:

1. Do you mean I should separate the logo text from the carbon fibre pattern that is directly behind the logo text? The thing with that is, the logo text casts shadows onto the carbon fibre pattern, so it's all one design. Not sure if you meant this?

2. Did you include the main pale background image in this code? I mean the image that stretches the entire width and height of the page and is a light grey colour with clouds. This image is behind the main centred page.

I'm almost there!

Thanks.


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 5:20:24 pm

hello...

[Simon Matthews] " 1. Do you mean I should separate the logo text from the carbon fibre pattern that is directly behind the logo text? The thing with that is, the logo text casts shadows onto the carbon fibre pattern, so it's all one design. Not sure if you meant this?"

well - you can take that art piece into photoshop and either make the logo a gif or a png with the shadow preserved and then overlay it. a png will preserve the shadow perfectly and render it great, but it might be a much larger file. a gif might be smaller, but preserving the shadow takes more photoshop knowledge...but it is doable. you could try the logo as a png first with the shadow in the logo file. worse case, you can put the logo into the background file, but keep in mind that it is a somewhat established design rule in web pages to have the logo clickable to return to the main site page, and if it's in your bg, you can't do that. a trick to get around that, however, is to take a 1x1 transparent gif file and put it in the layout above the logo outside of the bg. then make it the width and height of the logo and link it to the home page. it is the same effect.

[Simon Matthews] " 2. Did you include the main pale background image in this code? I mean the image that stretches the entire width and height of the page and is a light grey colour with clouds. This image is behind the main centred page."

no - this was just the code for the content inside the centered div.

sitruc


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 5:14:17 pm

Hi,

I tried your coding and the page is looking ok so far in the design mode of Dreamweaver, but for some reason when I preview the page in Chrome the header background image is not there - it's just blank. Any ideas what could be causing this?

Thanks.


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 5:20:55 pm

hello...

impossible to tell w/o seeing code. i'd guess you have a relative path or a "c:\blah\blah" style url in the bg image declaration...

sitruc


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 5:41:34 pm

Hi, here's the CSS for the header div. It works fine in Design mode but not in Chrome:


#header { width:100%; height:141px;
background:url('/Images/Triangle Design & Media Web Banner.jpg') no-repeat left top;


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 5:47:00 pm

hello...

well - the path says start at the root of the system ("/Images") - if you are previewing this locally, then it is trying to go to the root of your hard drive and find that path, and it's failing. in dreamweaver, it is creating a virtual project of sorts, so it can find it.

you can probably just drop the leading "/", assuming the page in question is on the same level as the images dir. otherwise, if it's a css file and it's in another directory like "styles" or the likes, then you can do a relative path ("../Images/...")...

make sense?

sitruc


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 6:00:13 pm

Cool, the relative path did the trick!

I've attached a screenshot of the page so far.



Starting to look ok. How do I add a bit of space between the social media icons? Also, for some reason the Facebook icon is slightly higher than the YouTube icon, so needs to be moved down a little. Will I need to put each icon into a div of its own?

Here's the CSS for the icons:

#social-media { float:right; width:20%; height:25px; margin:30px 20px 0 0; display:inline; }

Thanks for spending so much time on me!


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 6:08:23 pm

hello...


[Simon Matthews] "for some reason the Facebook icon is slightly higher than the YouTube icon, so needs to be moved down a little. Will I need to put each icon into a div of its own?"

w/o being able to look at the icons, i'd guess one has a slightly larger canvas size than the other? you can assign an id to an image and then adjust margins separately - so for example:

<img id="fb_icon" ...>

and then add a style:

#fb_icon { margin: 1px 10px 0 0; }

and it will move it down 1px and 10px away from the right (top right bottom left are those numbers). you can adjust to taste as needed.

[Simon Matthews] " Thanks for spending so much time on me!"

sure! it's looking good, and i hope it's a fun learn...

sitruc


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 7:17:12 pm

That's great, I have the icons in the right place now.

Yes it's real fun to learn! I used to programme in assembly a long time ago on my Spectrum and I never thought I'd get back into it, but I just spent 3 weeks in hospital after a bike crash, only came out last Friday and am still in a lower leg and forearm cast, so to pass the time in hospital I decided to start reading about web design. That was a good move because I'm really enjoying it so far!

There's one more problem I have with the page now though. In Chrome there is a small gap between the Unit 5 banner and the lower part of the page, though in design mode that gap is not there. You should be able to see the gap in the last screen shot I sent. How do I get rid of that gap?

Cheers!


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 7:19:29 pm

hello...

hope you feel better soon - that sounds rough.

as for the space, it could be a lot of things - extra html, margins, padding, etc...hard to say without seeing source. make sure the margins and padding are zero for each element on either side and make sure that there's no extra br tags or the likes in between them...

sitruc


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 8:25:47 pm

I can't seem to get anywhere with margins and padding. I've set them all to zero but it doesn't seem to have any effect. The page looks ok in design mode but has gaps in Chrome, above the header at the top of the page and between the banner and lower page. I've checked every id. Pulling my hair out with this one!


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 8:40:39 pm

if you post the page (not an image - the actual page with code), i can look at it for you...otherwise it's very hard to guess as to what it could be...


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 8:44:39 pm

Here's the HTML, from the body onward...










And here's most of the CSS:

ul { list-style:none; }

a img { border:none; }

#wrapper { position:relative; width:900px; margin: 0 auto 0 auto;
}

#header { width:100%; height:141px; margin: 0 0 0 0; padding: 0 0 0 0;
background:url('../Images/Triangle Design & Media Web Banner.jpg') no-repeat left top;
}

#logo { float:none; margin: 0 0 0 0; padding: 0 0 0 0; }

#social-media { float:right; width:20%; height:25px; margin:30px 20px 0 0; display:inline; }

#facebook-icon { margin: 10px 20px 0 0; }

#you-tube-icon { margin: 0 0 0 0; }

#navbar { width:100%; height:79px; background-color:#000; margin: 0 0 0 0; Padding: 0 0 0 0; }

#topnav ul {
border-top:1px solid white;
border-bottom:1px solid white;
margin:20px 0;
padding:10px 0;
}
#topnav ul li { display:inline; }
#topnav ul li a { padding:0 10px; text-decoration:none; color:white; }

#topnav a:link { color:#FFF; }
#topnav a:active { color:#FF0; }
#topnav a:hover { color:#BD3E57; }

#banner { margin: 0 0 0 0; padding: 0 0 0 0; }

#lower-page { margin: 0 0 0 0; padding: 0 0 0 0; }


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 8:46:19 pm

Here's the HTML again because I don't think it pasted properly in the last message:





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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 8:51:08 pm

hello...

ya - looking at snippets inline here isn't working - for example, there are a ton of break tags (one after every line, it looks like) - if those are in your original page, they can be a culprit - but they might be added here after you posted - hard to say.

can you post the page and graphics to a server so that i can look at as a site? then it's much easier to debug...

sitruc


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 8:57:22 pm

Hi,

Not sure what you mean about break tags. I didn't add any tags to the code myself? I'm new to this so not quite sure what you mean here.

I don't have a live website myself so don't know how to post to a server?


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 9:14:31 pm

hello...

your html didn't show up on the screen so i viewed the source of the page to look at it and it had a br tag after every line - don't know if that's your code or the cow's...

it is really very hard to debug html without seeing it in original form as a full presentation. there are debugging tools that can be used that save lots of time (try the firebug extension in ff, for example)...where are you planning on hosting the site once it is done? or are you just playing around to learn?

sitruc


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 20, 2013 at 10:44:48 pm

There are no br tags in my source code, that must be Cow's. The code is more or less the same as what you sent me, but with the styles in a separate styles sheet. How can it look ok in the design mode but not ok in Chrome? I thought the design mode was meant to reflect the finished page?

Don't know about hosting yet. That was something I was going to look into after I'd learned a bit more, probably after I have designed a full website. I want to find the cheapest way possible! :-)


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 21, 2013 at 1:43:09 am

hello...

the preview mode in dreamweaver is not 100% reliable. nor will it match what you see in all browsers. it's really hard for me to view your source embedded in creative cow source. your best bet is to keep at it on your end and/or get a temp hosting plan set up for your development purposes. it's much more reliable than the dreamweaver preview mode anyway... :-/

a good cheap host is bluehost.com, and you don't need a domain to get a plan set up, so you can get your site up and running and then tie a domain to it later on.

sitruc


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 21, 2013 at 9:19:57 am

Hi,

I've just started looking into free web and domain hosting, just so that I can get the page up and running in order for you to see it. I found this site and was wondering, just to be on the safe side, if you would let me know if the site is ok or not. Here's a link to the free domain page of their site:

http://www.000webhost.com/free-domain-hosting

And here's a link to their homepage:

http://www.000webhost.com/

If that site is legit then I'll register and try to get the page up and running.

Thanks!


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 21, 2013 at 12:12:07 pm

Hi,

I've just registered with a free hosting service and I have uploaded the page to the server so that you can see the source code. For some reason the web address doesn't take you directly to the page, but instead takes you to a page that displays links to the folders that contain my page. Clicking on the HTML link will then take you to my page. Not sure why it's working like that, haven't had time to look into it yet, but in the meantime you will be able to view my page.

There are a few errors in the page that need to be rectified, such as the margins that I spoke of earlier, at the top of the page and between the banner and lower page. Also there is a glitch in the navbar that looks ok in design mode but not in the browser.

The website address is:

http://triangledesign.site40.net

Thanks again for all your help and hope you can make sense of my source code!


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 21, 2013 at 12:17:05 pm

PS. There are some lines of code in the head that do not do anything yet. I have been following a series of html tutorials on YouTube that apparently will make use of those lines later on in the series.

Here's a link to one episode of that series, just so you know what I've been following. He seems a great tutor.







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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 21, 2013 at 12:40:34 pm

I've sorted it out now so that the link will take you directly to my page. The reason for the problem was that I had changed the name of the html file from 'index.html' to something else. Changing it back sorted the problem, so this link will now take you directly to my page:

http://triangledesign.site40.net/


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 21, 2013 at 3:57:14 pm

Hi,

Sorry for sending so many messages! Just to let you know I have now updated the home page on the website. It's looking better now, I think. Not sure if this is the right way to do it, but I gave negative values to the margins to get rid of the gaps, and it worked. I guess this means there are errors in the formatting?

Simon.


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 21, 2013 at 5:35:46 pm

hello...

a few responses/thoughts:

1. you get what you pay for wrt free hosting. you can get reliable hosting with a ton of great features for under $5/month - i know money is money, but you will be much better off in the long run. that's just my $.02 though.

2. took a copy of your page local and messed with it. first thing - avoid image and css file names with spaces in them - it just makes creates potential issues. always best to use underscores instead of spaces in web file names.

3. wrt the margins - only very very rarely should you need to use negative margins. if you are using them, you are likely compensating for something, as you were here. better to find the culprit. in this case, your #topnav ul had a margin of "20px 0", which means it had a margin of 20px on the top and bottom. if you just make that margin "0", then you are set and that space disappears. as for the other gap beneath, just set your #banner css to have a width of "100%" (not needed for the fix, but while there it's good) and then a height of the image that is in it, which is "300px" - then that other gap should go away.

sitruc


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 21, 2013 at 6:41:45 pm

Hi,

Thanks so much for all your help!

I've cleaned up the margins now using the fixes you suggested. This reminds me very much of when I started to learn machine code and I couldn't work out why my programmes weren't working - there was always a logical reason, and you spotted the reasons why the margins weren't working in my web page very well! This has been a great lesson for me and I will definitely take a lot from it and be more careful with my coding in future.

Well I joined 000webhosting.com, only to find out that Facebook won't accept links to their site because they are regarded as spammers, so I joined Biz.nf, which was at the top spot on a top ten list I found. I think I'll use this service whilst I'm building a website and then when it's more complete I will definitely take your advice and upgrade to a more professional service.

Here is a link to the page on Biz.nf:

http://triangledesignmedia.co.nf/#

When it's finished I'm hoping to have the picture in the middle fading to other images like a slideshow, and I think I'll produce a demo reel of my work for the video at the bottom right of the page.

Thanks so much again for all your help, it's been a real pleasure and I look forward to learning much more yet!

Simon.


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 21, 2013 at 7:00:51 pm

hello...

ya - if somebody is giving away hosting they are making their money somehow - and your domain could be flagged because of it. don't point your domain at any of these free sites; rather just use them for development and keep the domain separate. you don't want your domain to be flagged anywhere as bad, because that is just about impossible to undo...

keep us posted - site looks nice!

sitruc


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jun 21, 2013 at 7:38:33 pm

Thanks man, will do. I haven't bought a domain name yet, using their free subdomain name for the time being.

Will keep you posted!


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jul 4, 2013 at 7:26:45 pm

Hi,

Just thought I'd bring you up-to-date on the website I was working on for practice. I've got all the links working now, with each link taking you to pages containing various examples of my work. I've just embedded my YouTube videos for now, but when I learn more I may use custom videos. The banner on the homepage cross fades between a selection of different images that I produced. I didn't write the code for that myself. I'll add bits to the site as I go. The contact page doesn't include a form because I don't have a proper domain name yet, and apparently you need a proper domain name to use forms.

Here's a link to the site, which is made using the non-absolute positioning methods that you instructed me on earlier:

http://triangledesignmedia.co.nf/matte-painting.html

Simon.


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jul 4, 2013 at 9:28:32 pm

hello...

nice! a warning though - you have 12 images that average around 300kb or so (it seems) for that top art block - that's 3.6mb of data your page has to load. a good web page should be around 100kb - 200kb total, so you might want to consider making those jpgs and compressing them a bit. note also that most people won't spend anywhere enough time on your home page to see all 12 anyway, so you could easily pick 3-4 and put the rest in a clickable gallery somewhere...

sitruc


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jul 5, 2013 at 8:24:55 am

Hi,

Thanks for the advice, will consider that in future. Was wondering what problems my images can cause? The home page seems to load quickly on my computer, much quicker than some other sites I've visited. Takes under a second to load. The other pages take longer to load though, especially the Motion Graphics page, because of all the video links.

Simon.


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jul 5, 2013 at 2:51:49 pm

hello...

well - when it loaded for me there was unpleasant layering of images as they somewhat filled in/loaded. the problem is that you are at about 15 times what is considered a good size for people to have to download. if i tried to visit your site on a mobile network, it would take several minutes to load all those images, for example.

also trust me - people will maybe stay on the home page for 5-10 seconds...so you are loading several images that they just won't see there - why load that content for nothing? think about creating a gallery where the person can see your work and they know what they are getting into ahead of time.

sitruc


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jul 5, 2013 at 3:19:28 pm

Hi,

Ok, cool, thanks for the tips. Was shocked to find how much larger than average my page was! Will shrink those images down a bit and choose just a few for the homepage instead of 12. I'll probably end up designing another site from scratch anyway, it was only intended to be for practice, but might as well keep it available as being as it's done!

Thanks again for the tips and for your time!

Simon.


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jul 11, 2013 at 3:51:11 pm

Hi again,

I've reduced the number of pictures in my homepage gallery to 3 and made them into smaller JPegs to try to reduce the size of the page. I was thinking about the recommendations you made and decided to check out a page by the very popular and successful Video Copilot. Some of their pages seem very large with lots and lots of images. I was wondering if you could tell me how large the Video Copilot tutorials page was and whether or not the page is within the suggested guidelines you mentioned as I'm not sure how to check the size of a page? Here is a link to the page:

http://www.videocopilot.net/tutorials/

Thanks,

Simon.


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jul 11, 2013 at 5:07:05 pm

hello...

there's a clarification point here that i should have made - for inside pages that one would expect to have a lot of content (not all, mind you - but ones like that tutorial page), a page size rule is less important - for example, if you had a gallery page that showed off your work, i would expect going in that there would be a lot of images there. plus, i'd have to make the active decision to click a menu item to go there.

it's the cases where you have a page such as a home page where a visitor has no choice but to go to get to your site - there you want to avoid things like music, large graphics and slow load times. that page is your first impression, and the cleaner and quicker (and better) it is, the more likely they are to stick around and go elsewhere...

does that help clear it up a bit?

sitruc


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jul 11, 2013 at 5:28:13 pm

Hi,

Yes, thank you, that makes sense. I just found a website that diagnoses webpages and according to their diagnostic tool my homepage is now 94Kb, so that's good. However, Video Copilot's homepage is 718Kb, 7 times more than the recommendation! :-)

Simon.


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Curtis Thompson
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jul 11, 2013 at 5:35:19 pm

hello...

ya - i will throw in the wrinkle that it's also not a rule written in stone, but it's one that i try to follow - especially in these days of mobile where a lot of people might be hitting your site with only a cellular connection speed, it's nice to be nice, especially if you are a business...

just be happy - back in the days of dial-up when the 'net was just getting started, we had to limit ourselves to 20kb at a max for all the 14.4 modems. :-)

sitruc


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jul 11, 2013 at 5:39:50 pm

Hi,

Well I'm glad you mentioned it because I would've kept on making my pages any old size otherwise, and since compressing the images on the Design page it has definitely speeded up the loading of the page, which is always a good thing! So thanks for that! :-)

Simon.


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Simon Matthews
Re: A query about Absolute Positioning
on Jul 4, 2013 at 7:33:25 pm

Hi, just to let you know I mistakenly sent you a link to the Matte Painting page of my site, but clicking on home will take you to the home page :-)

Here's a link to the homepage anyhoo:

http://triangledesignmedia.co.nf/index.html

Simon.


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