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nick hasson
Smoke in a mac
on Nov 12, 2009 at 7:02:12 pm

http://www.fxguide.com/qt/1700/smoke-on-mac-yes-its-for-real


Well,

Smoke will now be on a mac. Good for some, bad for others.

Nick Hasson
http://www.niceedits.com


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Javier Leon
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 12, 2009 at 7:05:38 pm

Is just weird.


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moody glasgow
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 12, 2009 at 7:17:05 pm

I dont think they will drastically lower the price of the Smoke just because it will be running on a mac.

Hopefully, it will allow the Smoke to read more quicktime formats. I can see improved workflow by switching to an all mac based facility.

moody glasgow
smoke/flame


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Ben Rojas
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 12, 2009 at 7:47:56 pm

How's 15K for drastic !?!?! Oh, and it's the not Smoke "lite", it's the Smoke HD version! Having had to retire my old SD Smoke sometime back, I had to settle for an HD DS Nitris we had in our Atlanta facility. I've never really liked the damn thing, but beggars can't be choosers. I've been pushing for a new Smoke, but getting the boss to shell out 100+K; especially when we're getting things done w/FCS & CS4, is like pulling teeth ;o) The thought of running Smoke, FCS & CS4 on the same box makes me very very excited... And best of all, if need be, I can afford to buy the damn thing myself ;o)

BTW, cats officially out of the bag:
http://www.broadcastnewsroom.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=902440


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nick hasson
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 12, 2009 at 8:01:48 pm

15k is what i heard too. But that was for software only. So you still need another 12k of hardware.

Nick Hasson
http://www.niceedits.com


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Ben Rojas
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 12, 2009 at 8:08:55 pm

yeah, so figure when all is said and done, 30's for a full blown sys. If you've got the latest and greatest Mac Pro w/an AJA Kona 3 & NVidia GeForce FX 5600, we're probably only talking about the 15K plus additional memory; unless of course you've got it maxed already ;o)

Ben Rojas
Sr. Editor | Artist | Director
VTA Florida
One Oakwood Blvd. Ste. 120
Hollywood, FL. 33020
P. 954.920.9880
F. 954.920.2780
C. 305.301.2771
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Scott Witthaus
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 13, 2009 at 12:24:16 pm

From the Avid-L:

"You do not need to own another Smoke to buy one.

It will require the yearly service contract to keep it licensed.

It will be missing the higher end node based compositing tree which will
stay with the full Smoke for now."


Basically saying that anyone can buy a "McSmoke" but support is mandated and it lacks some of the higher end features. For now at least.


Scott Witthaus
Senior Editor/Post Production Supervisor
1708 Inc./Editorial
Professor, VCU Brandcenter


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Ben Rojas
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 13, 2009 at 5:10:09 pm

And that friends is the "gotcha"! But then again, I can't be what they charge now because the support contract does not cover hardware; there is none. But very good catch Scott... Hmmmm, how much is a 15K Smoke really gonna cost us in the long run!?!?!?

Ben Rojas
Sr. Editor | Artist | Director
VTA Florida
One Oakwood Blvd. Ste. 120
Hollywood, FL. 33020
P. 954.920.9880
F. 954.920.2780
C. 305.301.2771
E. ben.rojas@vta.com
http://www.vta.com


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Alan Okey
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 13, 2009 at 8:59:35 pm

I’m quite frankly very surprised that Autodesk is releasing Smoke in any form for the Mac, and it strikes me as a very forward-looking progressive move from what has traditionally been a very conservative company.

It’s hard to discern at this pointy if Smoke coming to the Mac is a strategic, proactive move by Autodesk management or simply a reaction to market realities.

I’m still waiting to see just how crippled Smoke on Mac will be before I make any judgements. The devil will be in the details.


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Amir Qureshi
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 14, 2009 at 5:26:29 am

i agree with Alan.

Also, keep in mind the steep learning curve, and that equates into high level of client expectations.

"...and there are as many Smoke artists as FCP editors."

Smoke artists and FCP/AE editors are NOT in the same category, and the expectations vary accordingly, rightfully so.

"Although online editing is hardly an art.. (when gfx, color etc are not part of the job)"

Online IS very much an art, and it usually does involve gfx and color in most situations, specifically color. And in general, with smoke, you are expected to be a skilled compositor on top of other things. When you are sitting on a box (with a proven set of tools perfected over the past sixteen or seventeen years or so, and peeps around you know about it) you are expected a world, and are expected to simply MAKE THINGS WORK no matter what, on the spot, that is, while putting on a happy face as as you entertain your clients with your funny weekend/bar story.

With online, fedex is the only hurdle between your output and its being on air. You are the final and last link before that couple of hundred thousand dollars worth spot and master piece of your clients goes on the air, and therefore the magnitude of responsibility riding on your shoulders is quite high, not everyone' cup of tea. Different ball game altogether, you can only know it, once you are actually in it.

Clients in a Smoke room (paying a good chunk), in general, tend to be more demanding in terms of color and other technicalities. A simple shift in reds or blues or something like that in the end tag or in skin tones on the final master (noticed after the tape has been shipped) could easily spiral into something causing a staff meeting the next day etc and could easily cost the next job. Like it or not, thats how it is.



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Amir Qureshi
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 14, 2009 at 5:27:06 am

___


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Rick Turners
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 13, 2009 at 9:42:14 pm

What do you feel will be bad for some?

Worst case scenario that I can think of is that everyone pirates Smoke for Mac and there are as many Smoke artists as FCP editors.


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Alan Okey
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 13, 2009 at 9:51:42 pm

[Rick Turners] "Worst case scenario that I can think of is that everyone pirates Smoke for Mac and there are as many Smoke artists as FCP editors."

There's a huge difference between having Smoke and being a Smoke artist. Even if you gave Smoke away for free, it wouldn't make it an easy application to master. Talent is still the ultimate differentiator, not what software one uses.


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Ben Rojas
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 13, 2009 at 10:11:00 pm

diddo.

Rick, even if the software gets pirated, which if you do a google search you'll notice that Smoke, Lustre, Combustion and others are available via bit torrent, you still have to put a kickass machine together to run it. The MacPro alone to run Smoke is going to be well over 10K, which that in itself may keep "home cutters" out of the game.

Ben Rojas
Sr. Editor | Artist | Director
VTA Florida
One Oakwood Blvd. Ste. 120
Hollywood, FL. 33020
P. 954.920.9880
F. 954.920.2780
C. 305.301.2771
E. ben.rojas@vta.com
http://www.vta.com


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Rick Turners
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 13, 2009 at 10:44:16 pm

In order to pirate those applications you need a PC with all of the compatible hardware. This will just make it easier, is all I'm saying.

And I agree, having software is different from being an artist with it. However, most medium sized post houses might have 30 editors (assistants included) and 2 finishers. Doesn't take much to shake things up in that situation.

Oh well, this conversation always pop's up when high end tools fall into the hands of the masses. The best artist's will rise to the top.

Although online editing is hardly an art.. (when gfx, color etc are not part of the job)



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Alex Udell
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 14, 2009 at 1:35:25 am

So does that mean that Avid will release DS for iphone?


hires editorial finishing and compositing...there's an ap for that.

:)

Alex


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Amir Qureshi
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 14, 2009 at 5:41:48 am

Sorry for the double post, still dont know how to use this thing properly :)


[Alan Okey] "There's a huge difference between having Smoke and being a Smoke artist. Even if you gave Smoke away for free, it wouldn't make it an easy application to master. Talent is still the ultimate differentiator, not what software one uses."


i agree with Alan. The learning curve is steep, followed only by the high level of client expectations.


[Rick Turners] "Although online editing is hardly an art.. (when gfx, color etc are not part of the job)"


Online IS very much an art, and it usually does involve gfx and color in most situations, specifically color. And in general, with smoke, on top of other things, you are expected to be a skilled compositor with a good design and artistic sense and with a strong understanding/background in color. There is a good reason why editors on smoke are generally referred to as "smoke Artists".

When you are driving a box (that is highly capable with a proven set of tools perfected over the past sixteen or seventeen years or so, and peeps around you know about it) you are expected a world, and are expected to simply MAKE THINGS WORK no matter what, on the spot that is, with your happy face on as you entertain your clients with your funny weekend/bar story. Anything less, and you may be the reason for the stress levels in the room.

With online, the only hurdle between your output and its being on air is fedex. You are the final and last link before that couple of hundred thousand dollars worth of spot, that beautiful master piece of your clients that they have nurtured and cherished, goes on the air. Its you who is searching for any minor dirt spec, a tiny tape drop out, any inconsistency in audio levels, etc., as you output and then playback off of tape to ensure everything is good. Therefore. the magnitude of responsibility riding on your shoulders is quite high, not everyone' cup of tea. Different ball game altogether, you can only know/feel it, once you are actually in it.

Clients in a Smoke room (paying a good chunk), in general, tend to be more demanding in terms of color and other technicalities. A simple shift in reds or blues or something like that in the end tag or in skin tones on the final master (noticed after the tape has been shipped to china) could easily spiral into something causing a staff meeting the next day and could easily cost the next big job from the same client. Like it or not, thats how it is.


[Rick Turners] "Worst case scenario that I can think of is that everyone pirates Smoke for Mac and there are as many Smoke artists as FCP editors."


Smoke artists and FCP/AE editors are NOT in the same category, and the expectations vary accordingly, rightfully so.



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moody glasgow
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 14, 2009 at 3:48:10 pm

So, if $15k is the price for software for the Mac Smoke, then I'm guessing you are going to see a turnkey price of around $60k- $70k, including storage. But I think that is a high estimate. Autodesk storage is expensive (3TB usable for 15k), but its good and fast. I'm also basing this off of current hardware costs for a linux box. I wonder how well a Mac Smoke will run in an XSAN environment.

As far as piracy goes, Autodesk has a pretty good licensing system. I can't imagine they won't implement it on the Mac Smoke. Also, I've heard of people trying to hack the linux version of Flame. I'm sure you can get a copy of software, but its the licensing that prevents them from getting very far. Each license key is specific to your hardware, so you can just install it on any machine and expect it to work.

I remain hopeful that this is a good move on Autodesks part. I cut my teeth on an Avid, and have work on FCP systems also, and I can safely say, the Smoke is the best all around finishing system around.

If you are building out a full blown finishing system, the only difference in price would be $14k. But you've already spent $50k+ on the room, the addition cost isn't that bad. Depending on your clients, or potential clients, the Smoke name may be worth it. I honestly don't see the point in spending a ton of money on a FCP finishing room, when you will be competing with Joe Blow running FCP in his garage on a G5.


moody glasgow
smoke/flame


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moody glasgow
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 16, 2009 at 6:15:23 pm

Another thought... Sparks... Will it uses the same sparks as a linux based Smoke? That could be a real gotcha... $10k for a spark package doesn't fly as well for a $15k software package.

moody glasgow
smoke/flame


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moody glasgow
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 16, 2009 at 6:35:10 pm

Thats the rumor... But, then again, the linux HD version of Smoke doesn't have Batch either... I assume you mean that it would not have Batch.


moody glasgow
smoke/flame


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Angus Mackay
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 16, 2009 at 11:16:32 pm


This could be an absolutely killer product. There's a real opportunity here for Autodesk, let's hope they take it.

To get Batch at the rumoured price points would make a lot of people's christmas. As long as action is in there, it'll be a good start.

The point about plug-ins is an interesting one, the Foundry have been done some great deals in the last year, but it's still way more than people would normally pay for desktop plug-ins. Also, maybe this means that we'll see some of the great desktop plug-ins (Trapcode, for example) get ported for Smoke. Particular in Batch, ooo yeah!



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moody glasgow
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 16, 2009 at 11:42:20 pm

Still, if all it is missing is Batch, then its a STEAL at $15k for just the software... Hmmmm lets see, buy HD smoke on linux for $130k, or buy Mac Smoke for $65k.....

I think the bigger question is this, Who is going to get hurt?

moody glasgow
smoke/flame


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Angus Mackay
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 17, 2009 at 10:51:55 am

Hi Moody,

I'd say that over-emphasis on the later question has cost Autodesk a few opportunities in the past few years. They have a commendable loyalty to customers that have spent a fair amount of money with them, but sometimes (IMO) it colours their judgement too much. The most radical moves they've made in recent times have also been the most strategically sensible (putting Batch in Smoke being a prime example).

I agree that batch in Smoke at this price point may be unrealistic, on the other hand it's in Flare, isn't it? Once you've lived in the Batch environment for a while you don't really want to go anywhere else :).

I have to say though that the thought of a Smoke that's properly open to working with desktop assets is a pretty happy one from a workflow point of view.

The linux stability and performance is great, but the hurdles are difficult to live in the current broadcast environment.

best

Angus




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moody glasgow
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 18, 2009 at 6:15:28 am

Its official:

http://twitter.com/autodesk

Smoke on mac for $14,995... damn that cheap...




moody glasgow
smoke/flame


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Ben Rojas
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 18, 2009 at 1:19:43 pm

Tried it out yesterday... Other than "Batch", it's all there and works beautifully. Cut a sequence in FCP, exported an XML and it linked up w/no issues. Dropped in some Motion & LiveType QT's no issues; alpha's worked fine. It was fan-frigen-tastic having all the apps open and able to jump back & forth. WireTap comes with the software and is pretty damn cool. It's does a nice job w/RED... Certainly not as nice & easy as getting into FCP, but hey, FCP's not working w/DPX files ;o) So for 15K (50's - MacPro, cards, storage, etc.) and 2K a year for the license you now have a full blown Smoke. This is going to be a game changer sure.

Ben Rojas
Sr. Editor | Artist | Director
VTA Florida
One Oakwood Blvd. Ste. 120
Hollywood, FL. 33020
P. 954.920.9880
F. 954.920.2780
C. 305.301.2771
E. ben.rojas@vta.com
http://www.vta.com


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Angus Mackay
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 18, 2009 at 1:40:54 pm

Ben,

Thanks for the feedback. Good to hear.

Angus



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Ben Rojas
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 18, 2009 at 3:29:43 pm

Now that the cat is officially out of the bag, let me make a call and see what I can or can't talk about... Be back soon.

Ben Rojas
Sr. Editor | Artist | Director
VTA Florida
One Oakwood Blvd. Ste. 120
Hollywood, FL. 33020
P. 954.920.9880
F. 954.920.2780
C. 305.301.2771
E. ben.rojas@vta.com
http://www.vta.com


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moody glasgow
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 18, 2009 at 2:38:44 pm

Hey Ben,

Where did you try it out at? Did they give any info on the system specs required to run Smoke?

thanks


moody glasgow
smoke/flame


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Ben Rojas
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 18, 2009 at 3:46:44 pm

OK, the shackles are off; yeah! The AutoDesk reseller down here - Cinesys - has it and I spent several hours on it yesterday. Spec wise, if your Mac Pro Model Identifier is MacPro 4,1, you're good to go. The better the NVidia card, the better it will run. Their Mac has a Quadro FX4800 and ran fine... I'd be fine with it. I'm told the 5600 now works perfectly in the Mac Pro. Storage wise -- this made me smile from ear to rear -- run whatever you want to run. Obviously the faster the array (ie. SAS vs. SATA) and the faster the connection (Fiber vs. SCSI) the better. Not having Batch is no big deal for me, I haven't been on Smoke since version 6.5 so I'm used to processing ;o) Hell, I do a shiteload now on DS & FCP!!! Is it fast??? Man, it screams! I look forward to hearing what you guys think when you get your hands on it.

Ben Rojas
Sr. Editor | Artist | Director
VTA Florida
One Oakwood Blvd. Ste. 120
Hollywood, FL. 33020
P. 954.920.9880
F. 954.920.2780
C. 305.301.2771
E. ben.rojas@vta.com
http://www.vta.com


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Chris Hanson
Re: Smoke in a mac - keyboard
on Nov 19, 2009 at 12:59:26 pm

Hi Ben,
Glad to hear smoke on OSX is living up to expectations. Quick question, did you find it a problem without a dedicated smoke hot-key labeled keyboard ? Autodesk aren't planning to release a Mac version of the smoke k/b that comes with the Linux version. The smoke hot-key layout is pretty unfathomable compared to most other NLE/CMX based systems.



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Ben Rojas
Re: Smoke in a mac - keyboard
on Nov 19, 2009 at 2:06:46 pm

I've been away from Smoke for 2 years, so the keyboard & shortcuts are an issue for me right now no matter what ;o) But yes, I think you hit on something that will, at least in the short run, be an issue for many. I wouldn't be surprised that by NAB we see companies like LogicKeyboard or Bella will come out with skins or keyboards for this new market of customers.

Ben Rojas
Sr. Editor | Artist | Director
VTA Florida
One Oakwood Blvd. Ste. 120
Hollywood, FL. 33020
P. 954.920.9880
F. 954.920.2780
C. 305.301.2771
E. ben.rojas@vta.com
http://www.vta.com


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Sean Cole
Re: Smoke in a mac - keyboard
on Jan 9, 2010 at 7:17:03 pm

Does anyone have a picture of the linux keyboard for Smoke?

Cheers

Sean
Pi Digital

---
'BA In My Pocket' for iPhone - Mr T app - Do a search for Mr T, BA or A Team


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Ben Rojas
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 18, 2009 at 1:24:15 pm

This one's a problem... No Sparks as of yet. I'm sure by NAB, not only GenArts, but plenty of others will be ported over and ready to go.

Ben Rojas
Sr. Editor | Artist | Director
VTA Florida
One Oakwood Blvd. Ste. 120
Hollywood, FL. 33020
P. 954.920.9880
F. 954.920.2780
C. 305.301.2771
E. ben.rojas@vta.com
http://www.vta.com


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nick hasson
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 18, 2009 at 5:55:46 pm

is it limited to HD or is 2k gonna work?

Nick Hasson
http://www.niceedits.com


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Rick Turners
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 18, 2009 at 6:34:28 pm

So it is nVidia only still?

If so, bummer. Color works much better with the current ATI cards (4870).


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moody glasgow
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 18, 2009 at 6:35:24 pm

I just got an email from Autodesk:

“Starting Nov 17th 2009 Autodesk began technology previews of Autodesk Smoke for the Mac at InterBEE, Japan. Priced at $14,995 (US SRP), Autodesk Smoke is a software-only solution with industry-leading creative editorial finishing capabilities. Subscription pricing is $1995 (US SRP). Don’t just edit. Finish with Smoke!”

So that much is official... Hopefully we will get more news from Autodesk soon.

moody glasgow
smoke/flame


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Ben Rojas
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 18, 2009 at 7:19:33 pm

Hmmm, good question, I know you can work in 2K, even 4K, but your output, at least to tape is HD 1080 4:4:4. I'll send an email to the demo artist / tech and find out more. If you can work in 2K, I don't see why you can't export a 2K file unless it's a sys limitation.

Ben Rojas
Sr. Editor | Artist | Director
VTA Florida
One Oakwood Blvd. Ste. 120
Hollywood, FL. 33020
P. 954.920.9880
F. 954.920.2780
C. 305.301.2771
E. ben.rojas@vta.com
http://www.vta.com


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nick hasson
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 18, 2009 at 7:26:45 pm

If it is the same as linux you can publish 2k out or export image.

Nick Hasson
http://www.niceedits.com


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Marc-André Ferguson
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 19, 2009 at 1:42:01 am

Basically, Smoke is resolution-independant, so it will do 2k and 4k, maybe not out the Kona card, but still...



Marc-Andr


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Ben Rojas
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 19, 2009 at 3:54:03 am

Correct. I got confirmation late this afternoon that, yes, you can export at 2K. Also, I was incorrect earlier, the Mac Pro's Model Identifier should be 3,1 or higher.

Ben Rojas
Sr. Editor | Artist | Director
VTA Florida
One Oakwood Blvd. Ste. 120
Hollywood, FL. 33020
P. 954.920.9880
F. 954.920.2780
C. 305.301.2771
E. ben.rojas@vta.com
http://www.vta.com


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Stuart Ferreyra
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 19, 2009 at 2:48:43 pm

As a specialized post boutique owner in Los Angeles, Timecode Multimedia, these are VERY EXCITING news. I am sure Blackmagic will now have to come out with their version of desktop based DaVinci. They have no other option. And as long as the price point still a decent chunk of cash, the tools will remain within the higher-tear professionals like ourselves.

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Colorist / Post Supervisor

- Visit our studio's website.
- RED Rocket Conversions.
- Follow us on Facebook. Become a fan!
- Duplication, Mastering and Teranex Conversions.


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Ben Rojas
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 19, 2009 at 3:48:50 pm

I'm w/u Stuart. Using Autodesk as an example, essentially a software company that made much of it's money w/it's AutoCad program(s), the writing was on the wall that they didn't want to be in the hardware game. I have a strong feeling they will make much more money now selling & licensing the Discreet product(s) software. My first love has always been Creative Editorial; compositing & designing came into play because there was so much money to be made in that arena. Fast forward to today and, at least in the S.FL. market, it's become almost an after thought because of the evolution of post. The days of handing the baton to someone else for COMP., GRFX, EFX, CC, etc. have significantly dwindled. I think this was a very prudent move for Autodesk and one that Blackmagic will watch closely. A daVinci product running side by side other apps on a Mac could very well net them some serious coin ;o) And for those concerned about their jobs, money, etc. If you've run a Smoke; a daVinci (even an iQ, which Quantel is undoubtedly watching all this and scratching their heads), it takes more than skill to drive one of these puppies, it takes talent.

Ben Rojas
Sr. Editor | Artist | Director
VTA Florida
One Oakwood Blvd. Ste. 120
Hollywood, FL. 33020
P. 954.920.9880
F. 954.920.2780
C. 305.301.2771
E. ben.rojas@vta.com
http://www.vta.com


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moody glasgow
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 19, 2009 at 7:16:52 pm

Really good video on Smoke on Mac:

http://media.fxguide.com/fxguidetv/fxguidetv-ep072.mov



moody glasgow
smoke/flame


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Javier Leon
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Nov 20, 2009 at 12:30:18 am

all of this sounds great. have a smoke for 15k is great.
But I keep wondering why Autodesk keep and keep messing around with this discreet products instead of add new features, fix bugs and improve workflow.
smoke on mac will carrie all the bugs from linux, plus OS X will add new bugs.



Javier Leon
VFX / Flame Artist


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Alan Okey
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Dec 4, 2009 at 7:41:40 pm

[Javier Leon] "But I keep wondering why Autodesk keep and keep messing around with this discreet products instead of add new features, fix bugs and improve workflow. "

OK, I'll bite...

Where have you been the last few years? Autodesk has added many new features and workflow improvements to Smoke and Flame. I can't speak to bug fixes, but just a cursory glance at the videos on FXGuide TV show that there has been a regular progression of new features and workflow enhancements to the Systems products.

http://www.fxguide.com/fxguidetv.html

Are you on a support (maintenance) contract?


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Randy Little
Re: Smoke in a mac
on Dec 17, 2009 at 7:40:12 pm

I have seen the whole autodesk suite running on a $2500 xw8600. The only thing it lacked was the Aja. standard FS with crappy esata raid that was fast enough for 2k. Even Flare will run on a lap top pretty much any laptop with a nvidia card. Fusion with Generations will do everything a flame can do for WAY less. Still Like the flame but its days are numbered. 5 years maybe. Autodesk doesn't care about this small market. They he laid off so many people from the Media entertainment division its not funny.





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