BCC 8 Wild Cards for Sony Vegas Pro
Once again I am looking for answers to just what can be accomplished with this particle effect in SVP 12. Where are tutorials for this and many other features of BCC8 and Vegas. Again it seems as if second fiddle is being played here. Or is it 3rd or 4th. While some of the other NLE tutorials can be useful to try and translate to Vegas many more are not.
Wild Cards is not a particle effect so perhaps you meant another effect. If you are referring to Wild Cards I can tell you from my communications with Boris Tech that it does not work as described in the AVID tutorials due to limitations within Sony Vegas. They are considering to make it function within Boris Red and also working with Sony for a solution.
There are many FX'S that do not work across all NLE'S in the same manner as shown in a particular tutorial. I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out a work around. Marginal success with that and still on going so I can't share it at this juncture.
We can keep making contact with both companies and hope for a solution. My bet is Boris will include it in withing RED.
Thanks for your reply, Joe I got the same response some 7 months ago and was assured that Boris was working on the situation. I'm just a little peeved that so many things are not doable with Boris BC C8 in Sony Vegas. There were no disclaimers to tell me any different when I bought the software that I remember. Good money spent only to have to spend a bundle more (RED or other NLE's) to come close to the results I'm looking for. I'm curious to where the Customer Promise is in regard to Vegas. I don't see it from here.
I took the words particle illusion from the BCC 8 .pdf file: BCC Card Array is a particle based generator style filter. The took the FX as such.
I realized after I had posted it that Boris does consider Wild Cards to be a particle FX. My mistake indeed.
I presented the same question to Boris as well and asked for a list of FX'S and their respective NLE'S wherein they were known to work without issue. They don't have one simply because they did not test all the facets of every FX with all the known NLE'S their software works with. When I purchased Boris RED, and Boris BCC I wanted to be sure that all my needs were met and like yourself found a few problems with some of the FX's that I really wanted to use.
My system is a home built powerhouse and yet I have had issues with SVP 12 crashing with some of the FX'S. Also there is a known problem with RED'S installer that is supposed to be addressed in the next update. The issue has to do with SVP not seeing the plug ins and the sequence for the priority of what gets installed first.
So I have downloaded the trial version of AVID to get make this work but was not happy with learning a new NLE just to have it done.
For me the simplest solution is to include it in the RED stand alone version. Of course I would prefer to not have to work outside of SVP but there is nothing I can do about it.
Really the issue is not with Boris but with Sony as it is their software that does not allow all the features the FX requires.
I guess some things are just not made to collaborate with each other at the buyer's expense. I'll address my concerns to Sony, but I would probably get the same results. My thoughts are that the market for both working together might be worth the effort on their part. However, it may be like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. We all know how that goes.
Thank you for your insight, Joe.
I'm not sure how cut and dry it is in reality simply thinking from both persepctives. My thought is the stand alone Red should have all the features the plug in version has within the NLE. Why wouldn't it? It doesn't....
But since we are talking about different software companies I don't see how they could ensure complete compatiblity across the board.
Sony has trouble within there own creations hence the constant new builds and I amsure Boris has similar issues. So like most companies the consumer becomes the beta (unpaid) testers. Microsoft is famous for that and for the most part so are the rest. Techs and programmers are expensive. So here we are.
All we can do is try and find some wort of work around and wait on them to address the problems. I agree with all you stated and wish there was an easier solution.
Mike, you haven't explained what you cannot do. Every NLE has it's limitations. Is there a particular tutorial you are trying to follow and can't? If so, which tutorial and what can't you do?
Hi John, here is the thread from 7 months ago. I was hoping that there might be an update or another way to do things since that time. It was an Avid tutorial, but as with many things in the Boris world the work cannot be done in Vegas without fumbling through it. Then you find out find out you lost the ball after running 90 yards. You see the ads for these super cool things the FX software can do. However, they don't tell you need an army of other NLE's to do to what attracts you in the first place.
What I was trying to do was make a wall just like in AVID. I'd also like to use EPS spline or SVG files that don't require opening my wallet yet again.
OK, I watched the tutorial and this is definitely a Vegas Pro limitation. Vegas has no way of exposing the lower tracks to an FX on another track with the exception of the Composite Mode. So in Vegas Pro, BCC Wild Cards can only have access to 2 tracks maximum so you can only place two videos on the cards and no more. This is a fundamental Vegas Pro limitation that I don't see being lifted any time soon.
I have to agree with you that the documentation doesn't mention that this is an AVID exclusive or not support on Vegas Pro. It looks to me like everything else works as advertised.
In general, this will always be a limitation with Vegas Pro because it only allows FX filters to access the track or event that they are on, and limits composting FX to the track it's applied to and one track below. This is not specific to Boris products (i.e., all other 3rd party FX providers have the same limitation)
The good news is, you can create a video wall in Vegas Pro without any 3rd party plug-ins at all by simply using Track Motion.
OK Mike, I figured out how to do a video wall with BCC Wild Card in Vegas Pro. You need to apply it to the track and place your media on a single track in evenly spaced events and set the Sample Mode to Coordinated Frames and the Frame Count to be the event length. This will give you the same effect as you saw in AVID.
I'll ask Boris if I can make a tutorial for Boris TV to show you how.
John, thank you so very much for taking the time to see this matter through. It is good to know that there is a way to do the FX within Vegas. I would be at a loss without your expertise doing the heavy lifting.
I always look forward to your tutorials and certainly hope that Boris allows you to cover the application of all their FX in Vegas. I am going to attempt to make the wall as you explained. At some point I hope to do this stuff as fluid as the pro's seem to make it. I need to invest more time with the tools I have and retain more of the lessons.
Mike, Here are the steps to make BCC Wild Card video wall work in Vegas Pro just like in AVID:
BCC Wild Card Video Wall Instructions:
Too bad you didn't bring this to my attention 7 months ago. I could have told you how to do it back then. If there is anything you want me to create a Boris TV episode about, please don't hesitate to contact me. This goes for anyone reading this. I'm always looking for ideas for new episodes. ;-)
John, boy do I appreciate your efforts. I should have known better to ask you 7 months ago. The reply from Boris was that it could not be done with Vegas at the time so I left it at that. I'll know just where to ask when I come across some of the other things I found not to work in my experience. I had a list here someplace. I believe that many involved presets in different categories that did not do anything when attempting to use them.
Thanks once again. I'll let you know how it goes.
Unbelievable how you figured that one out John. I have tried many different methods with some moderate success but this looks promising.
Sans the info on what the particular functions do and how they are meant for SVP I wonder why the Boris tech I had numerous conversations with was unable
to point me in this direction. I even downloaded the trial version of Avid to get what I wanted but did not relish learning a new NLE just for this effect.
My suggestion to them was to simply make it part of Boris Red but your solution is just as good. Have yet to try it but I will tonight.
Thanks as always John for making life a bit easier for the work we do. Much appreciated....now about that Spell Checker??? :)
John I must be missing a step here in the process because when I follow the list and select COORDINATED LOOPS the video goes blank.
All of my events are 4 seconds (120 frames) butted up together as yours are displayed and applied WILD CARDS to the track level but to no avail.
The array is set at the default level so no problems there. Any insight as to what is happening?
[Joe Mantaratz] "John I must be missing a step here in the process because when I follow the list and select ORDERED the video goes blank."Are your events at the beginning of the timeline? Does only ORDERED cause them to go black? (do the other settings work?) Can you shows us a screen shot?
Guess you read this after I edited the post...what I meant to say was when I select Coordinated Loops not Ordered.
No the events are not at the beginning of the timeline as the video wall I wanted at the end of the production.
Not sure why that would matter but I will try it now and let you know.
[Joe Mantaratz] "Not sure why that would matter but I will try it now and let you know."It matters because you are using BCC Wild Cards as a Track FX so it's looking at the beginning of the track for it's media. ;-) This is only because you told it to loop so it loops from the beginning of the track.
It works when I bring all the events back to the very beginning of the timeline. I presume since it is lookging for something to loop from that the blank space causes it to produce nothing.
Bottom line is it works so I guess I have to render out what I want and bring it back in or nest it.
Side Question: I built a high end machine using the higher end limit of Video Guys DIY9. It was listed in a prior post of mine but here it is again.
1 CPU 4930K Ivy Brigde
2 32 Gig Ripjawz 2133
3. Nvida PNY K4000
4. ASUS P9X79 Pro
5. Crucial SSD 960GB (OS/Programs drive)
6. WD Velociraptor 600 GB (Media Drive)
7. WD 160 WD Velociraptor 160 GB (Render Drive)
8. Cool Master Full tower (USB 3/2, E Sata) Huge case
9. Water Cooled
10. Net Gear Wireless USB Adapter
11 Win 7 64 bit Pro
12. Sony 12 Suite..updated to latest build
13. Boris Red
14. Boris Particle
15. ASUS Blue Ray
16. Firewire PCIe card
17. Corsair 850 W PSU
The Wild card effect brings the system to a crawl in the preview. even on draft is it not fluid. The footage I am using is all SD and no effects at all. I have also noticed other times when it does similar things as well. Such as image masking and simple text with drop shadow. Can't recall all the details of how and why it happens but I can repeat it on a regular basis. I have tried with and without the NVDIA card active but to no avail.
My dynamic ram is set to 200...I played around with it changing it but it made no difference. Thought it might be the cause.
I thought with a high end machine like this I would breeze through these issues, it must be something I am missing in my setup
[Joe Mantaratz] "It works when I bring all the events back to the very beginning of the timeline. I presume since it is lookging for something to loop from that the blank space causes it to produce nothing."Yes, since you had to add it as a Track FX, it is looking at the beginning of the track for the media. This is why you are seeing black because you have no media at the beginning of the track.
[Joe Mantaratz] "Bottom line is it works so I guess I have to render out what I want and bring it back in or nest it."You need to learn to think different when doing special FX. Without BCC in Vegas Pro you would have used a program like After Effects. In AE it is extremely common to make Compositions within Compositions. In fact, "Make Comp" is a menu item. This sort of "nesting" is required for special FX work. Luckily Vegas Pro has this too, it calls it a Nested Project but it's just like a nested comp in AE.
That means you need to make nested projects in Vegas Pro a common occurrence in your workflow when using BCC. Whenever you need to do multi track compositing, think nested project. Whenever you need to do motion tracking, think nested project. Whenever you need to do match move, think nested project. After a while it will become second nature to create these more complex elements in a nested project. It also keeps your main timeline a lot cleaner.
[Joe Mantaratz] "The Wild card effect brings the system to a crawl in the preview. even on draft is it not fluid. The footage I am using is all SD and no effects at all. I have also noticed other times when it does similar things as well. Such as image masking and simple text with drop shadow. Can't recall all the details of how and why it happens but I can repeat it on a regular basis."Wow, that's very similar to my system and I don't have any problems like that. If you watch my last Boris FX Live Webinar when it comes on-line, you'll see how fluid BCC8 runs on my computer and I had he preview set to Best (Full). Make sure that your Quadro graphics drivers are up to date. I'm currently using the Quadro ODE Graphics Driver 331.82.
Does your project match your media? Having your project settings different than your media settings causes Vegas Pro to convert your media to match the project settings on-the-fly. This can cause very slow responsiveness.
Is there anything else running in the background? There is a program called EndItAll2 that will kill every process on your computer except essential OS processes. Try using that first, then run Vegas Pro and see if there is any difference. That's the only thing I can think of.
[Joe Mantaratz] "My dynamic ram is set to 200...I played around with it changing it but it made no difference. Thought it might be the cause."Dynamic RAM is probably the most misunderstood parameter in Vegas Pro. It only affects when you press Shift+B to create a dynamic RAM preview. It has no other purpose and it steals memory from the rest of Vegas Pro so it should normally be set low so as not to rob the rest of the program from the RAM it needs unless you need to use RAM Preview (Shift+B) a lot. 200 is a good setting (that's the default).
[Joe Mantaratz] "I thought with a high end machine like this I would breeze through these issues, it must be something I am missing in my setup"Like I said, here are my specs: Intel Hex Core Video Editing Workstation and yours is very similar. You should be seeing smooth previews with a Quadro K4000 (I only have the older 4000).
JOhn, I am currently out of town but I have a large project to film when I get back and I wanted to at least keep the info flowing as best I could. The system I built only has the following installed and nothing else.
WIndows 7 Pro 64 bit
Boris Red and BCC
SVP 12 suite
Wondershare Ulitmate Video Converter
VLC video player
All updates have been turned off for all software. The test footage I tried with the Wild Cards FX was all SD and the project settings matched. That is the first step I do when I import any footage and so just to be sure I tested the FX with only SD footage and nothing else in the project. I have not checked the latest drivers for the video card but I will when I get back.
I thought something was wrong with my system when the render kept hanging up and then ultimately crashing with that FX on the timeline.
Prior to crashing however it would effect any other window open such as IE by totally distorting the page. Even if I opened the task manager the problem was the same and it rendered it totally unreadable. It did render when brought into its own timeline.
I tried turning the Video card on and off in the preferences just to see if that would have any effect. It didn't.
Sorry this is a jumble of info I am squeezing work during a family vacation on the sneak. LOL No doubt you understand.
John I downloaded the latest NVIDIA drivers...no help.
With only a 3x3 array and SD footage all matched to project the results were the same. Jittery at half preview and just not fluid at all.
Could the problem reside with the Mother board installation or in the bios? The reason I am asking is in the devices tab there are question marks under Other Devices. Also the sound display constantly flickers as if there is an IRQ conflict but the audio plays fine. My thinking was that NVIDA was competing for the sound so I disabled it ability since I don't use it for that purpose. No help there either.
You and I have basically the same system I thought you may be able to shed some insight. Sorry I am grasping at straws here for a solution and I am not a novice builder but also not an expert.
Clean system, followed specs, all new software fresh install and still problems. Yep like Mac for the lack of those issues for the most part. But here I am yet again.
Sorry I have to ask this basic question but did you apply the Intel Chipset drivers after you installed your OS? I'm asking because of all the unknown devices in your Device Manager. Try downloading the latest Intel Chipset drivers for your motherboard and re-apply them. That's the only thing I can think of. You shouldn't have all those unknown devices. Something is definitely wrong there.
I will go and check and get back to you, the drivers for the chipset should be with the install CD that came with the board. Can't see how I missed that but who knows at this point.
Almost make me want to start from scarth again....almost.
I had to flash the bios for the board to recognize the CPU since the board was in production before the CPU.
[Joe Mantaratz] "I had to flash the bios for the board to recognize the CPU since the board was in production before the CPU."I would download the chipset drivers at the same level as the BIOS. Quite often a BIOS will require a specific chipset driver so make sure that these match. There shouldn't be any unknown devices.
John, I spent most of the day installing drivers and testing. When all is said and done I finally have the device manager showing everything as it should be. No more unknown devices.
I also downloaded the latest drivers for the video card but that did not help issue with the Wild Card FX running poorly. Not sure where to turn from here for a solution as it makes little sense. Surely there must be something I am missing I just cant figure it out.
As stated before there is nothing on this machine that is not for editing and basic operation. Is there something I can send you to look deeper into this that you can think of?
As a side note to all of this I found out that although I opted out completely of Windows Update it still somehow was able to download a HOTFIX which would cause my IE to crash and the audio in videos such as YouTube to start, stop then cease to function. What was in this gem of a hotfix I have no idea but every couple of days it would reinstall iteself with no notice. Thankfully I routinely create restore points. With all the drivers now correct it remains to be seen if it will cause an issue again. Here I was chasing possible Flash issues and conflicts but at the end of the day I still don't know if it is really stable now. Time will tell.
I'm also not clear on why the Video card GPU acceleration needs to be turned off for SVP to function properly. I've read the threads as to it being problematic and Vegas not using the GPU for rendering but what about the intergration of RED and BCC while editing?
Tried selecting it on and off but it makes no difference at all.
Thanks as always for all your help.
[Joe Mantaratz] "As a side note to all of this I found out that although I opted out completely of Windows Update it still somehow was able to download a HOTFIX which would cause my IE to crash and the audio in videos such as YouTube to start, stop then cease to function."Microsoft has trashed by machines with their updates more than once. I have them set to download but not install. This way it thinks it's doing something but I never apply them until after I have done my monthly full backup. This way if something goes wrong, I can restore from my last backup. Maybe now that all of your devices have drivers these updates might work. It's bad to install a single hotfix if the rest of your system is out of date. I would install all updates at this point to get your system current. Windows is a virus magnet and not having patches for the 1000's of security vulnerabilities on Windows is dangerous living. (Another reason why i use Mac)
[Joe Mantaratz] "I'm also not clear on why the Video card GPU acceleration needs to be turned off for SVP to function properly."That should not be. I had to do this with the 330.0 drivers for my Quadro 4000 card but I've had the GPU acceleration enabled with the 331.82 drivers and it's working fine for me. It seems to be very problematic with gamer cards like the GeForce series but it's pretty stable with Quadro cards.
[Joe Mantaratz] "I've read the threads as to it being problematic and Vegas not using the GPU for rendering but what about the integration of RED and BCC while editing?"RED and BCC are unaffected by this setting. RED and BCC use OpenGL which has nothing to do with the Vegas GPU acceleration which only affects Sony's plug-ins and timeline playback. You can safely turn off GPU acceleration in Vegas Pro and RED and BCC will continue to use OpenGL acceleration. Another reason to use Quadro cards because the OpenGL support is usually better in Quadro drivers because the CAD programs that the Quadro is targeted for use OpenGL but games don't use this often so game cards have minimal support for OpenGL.
Ah John so I though also was the case with not letting them install but then I found a little gem of a disclosure that says it may install them anyway when you check for updates. From day one I have always had the setting to never check or download updates and then after all the trouble I found that info.
Here is how it reads from the privacy statement
Choice and control
Update Services are turned on if you choose one of the following settings: (a) install updates automatically; (b) download updates but let me choose whether to install them; or (c) check for updates but let me choose whether to download and install them. The Windows Update service is turned on and set to "Install updates automatically" when you choose the express settings during Windows setup.
If you turn on the Update Services, regardless of which setting you have chosen, required updates to some components of the service will be downloaded and installed automatically without further notice to you.
How is that for a gem?
If you would prefer not to receive required updates, turn off the Update Services.
You can also choose whether to check for or automatically install Important and Recommended updates for your computer or Important updates only. Optional updates are never installed automatically. To change your Update Services settings after Windows setup:
It also knocked out my Blue RAY Burner and had to reload the drivers for that. If Sony would make a Mac version to I would leave in a heartbeat. So I am not really eager to allow it to download all the latest updates and have to start all over agin with fixing everything else. But maybe I will just have to start from scratch. Will see...
[Joe Mantaratz] "If you turn on the Update Services, regardless of which setting you have chosen, required updates to some components of the service will be downloaded and installed automatically without further notice to you."Wow, i didn't realize that. You know, I'm having a problem now with Excel and QuickTime taking forever to load all of sudden and I didn't apply any updates. Maybe Microsoft snuck one in without my consent? I'm going to have to turn updates off completely then. The last thing I needs is Microsoft messing up my system again.
[Joe Mantaratz] "If Sony would make a Mac version to I would leave in a heartbeat."Me too. I'm really hoping that Sony is working on a Mac version for Vegas Pro like they did for Sound Forge.
It was a shocker to me as well and the odd thing is those updates do not show up under installed programs it shows up only under the WINDOWS UPDATE/VIEW UPDATE HISTORY.
Just ck'd mine and yet again this one hotfix continuously installs itself regardless of what I do. Here is the hotfix that causes all the trouble, bet you have it as well. Remember I have my settings to never download nor to ck...well as you can see by Microsofts own statements they will do as they wish. So I may have to never allow this system again to see the internet. What a sham indeed.
Hotfix for Windows (KB2505454)
Installation date: 12/29/2013 7:15 PM
Installation status: Successful
Update type: Important
Fix for KB2505454
Sorry I am coming back to this at such a late date but I wanted to update you and get your thoughts on my persistent issue. Wild cards FX works for me but still runs very slowly.
What I did notice is the sound of the media drive being accessed intensely with only the slightest of timeline cursor movement. My Media drive is a Velociraptor 1GB 10000 RPM.
Don't know why I never paid attention to it before but it actually sounds like the media has lost focus and is constantly being reloaded although I have not changed the top level window to another program.
(Side note:SUPER FETCH has been turned off)
It only seems to do it with this FX and I have not experimented in depth with others at this point.
This is my last ditch effort before I do a reinstall of all my software.
Thanks John as always for all the assitance