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A Dinosaur Changes

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Andy StintonA Dinosaur Changes
by on Apr 19, 2010 at 4:06:59 pm

I love tape. especially video tape .....However I have a need to perhaps changes over to a tapeless system for an upcoming series of videos that I am producing. It must be mobile and self contained as a lot of it is handheld.

I would love to have some suggestions thoughts etc.

Andy Stinton
Corporate Video
Live & Stage Events
Business Practices


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Mark SuszkoRe: A Dinosaur Changes
by on Apr 19, 2010 at 4:12:14 pm

Not a fan of P2, but the competing card based systems have some good points. I also like the idea of the strap-on hard drive recorders like the Firestore. We have one of those. Andy, you didn't specify if this was going to be long-form, short-form, what you will do for archival, and what kind of post-production workflow was in the offing. Such factors would have an influence on the choice of a tapeless system.


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Andy StintonRe: A Dinosaur Changes
by on Apr 19, 2010 at 10:48:02 pm

Its quick and dirty "B" role style used as a back drop for a voice over . The shoots will be in power stations, so guerilla shooting is whats needed. They don't let us take lots of gear into a nuclear reactor :)

It will be edited in SD for a corporate show using Media 100. Hopefully we will be able to do this in the back of our shooting van as we trip along the highways and byways.. Think MASH..

We quite likely will put the unit in our studio when we finish to do some basic HDV green screen.

I've looked at the Card based Firestore and like the price and the ability to swap cheap media cards . I like the Edirol Unit even more but hate the price ..

Reliability is the key and with no experience its a crap shoot.

Andy Stinton
Corporate Video
Live & Stage Events
Business Practices


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David LeesRe: A Dinosaur Changes
by on Apr 20, 2010 at 3:12:58 pm

TAPELESS

We've done the switch to Panasonic's P2 card system, and I would say now is the time to do the switch to tapeless.
Here are some quick notes about our process:
Equipment: HVX200, FCP, P2 cards.
Your situation: I don't know how well the p2 will integrate with the Media 100

Don't bother with the firestore -- get p2 cards. Panasonic will have a $300 card reader out soon so that you don't have to use the camera to capture footage. Firewire is a bad connection and the Firestore is bulky for handheld.
You can shoot DVCPRO 50 (SD), HDV, or FULL HD (great for most corporate productions.)

The Biggest Challenge: FILE MANAGEMENT
I am currently involved in a production where another shooter lost footage due to disorganized file transferring. Stay organized. There is not tape backup. If you have an old computer, use it to transfer files and create backups. Always keep backups. you can get relatively cheap storage these days.

If you have any questions, let me know.

Regards,

David Lees | Producer | Key West Video
BLOG: http://corporate-video-consultant.blogspot.com/
20th year | 8 awards | Fortune 500
http://www.keywestvideo.com


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Noah KadnerRe: A Dinosaur Changes
by on Apr 21, 2010 at 2:21:29 pm

Also consider an HMC150/40. Those give you nice AVCHD quality but use much less expensive SDHC cards. P2 is great but it might also be overkill for what you're doing. Visual image quality is definitely in the same ball park with the 150 camera with less expense.

And yes- definitely don't bother with the Firestore. It opens up a word of potential post and production problems, while simultaneously giving you another piece of heavy gear to carry and keep happy with fresh batteries.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!
Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D.
Watch Formosa- My indie movie shot with the SDX900 and finished with Final Cut Studio.


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Mark SuszkoRe: A Dinosaur Changes
by on Apr 21, 2010 at 7:47:41 pm

Not trying to start an argument... but we power our firestore with a tap off the Anton Baur mount for the camera battery, and a wall wart when connected to the editing workstation. The firestore also contains its own lithium battery pack internally, and can run for several hours off that, so really, power in the field is not a huge issue unless you're really in the wild. Your firestore impressions may be based on earlier models.

What we find handy about the firestore approach is, we shoot on a Panny 900 DVCProHD camera. 66 minute DVCpro tapes run 33 minutes of HD in the camera. The hard disk can run longer than those tapes, and can cover tape changes... But we like tape because that's currently how we shelf-archive our HD assets. We don't have a dedicated "p2card wrangler" to chase our shooters and juggle and load and unload cards that are too expensive to leave filled up, on a shelf. Tape OTOH is cheap for us, and doesn't need a "data wrangler" or laptop workstation just to keep files managed. Long term we bump the tapes to BluRay.

With the firestore we are able to roll simultaneously to hard disk and tape, nice having a backup right there, and if the producer on a fast-breaking story needs to take off and file the story, they just unclip the hard drive and split, the cameraman can stay and keep rolling on additional stuff for later. You can also set the firestore to record in a different format than the tape, so you can be format-agile if need be, without taking the time to convert formats.

No, its not for everyone, but we find it useful for our mix of fast-turn-around ENG field shooting and edit/uplink, commercial and PSA EFP production, and documentary shooting. And cost wise, though costs of P2 are indeed dropping, we had to decide at the time, if investing in a stack of expensive and proprietary media cards and readers that needed to constantly be recycled was really cheaper for us than tape, ...and it wasn't.

Now, the SD data cards that are replacing P2, those might be cheap enough to change the dynamic, (though I keep hearing about problems with some types of cards and some Sony cameras) but right now, for us, we use what we do because it flexibly fits our specific needs best. Your needs may be a ltitle different.


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Noah KadnerRe: A Dinosaur Changes
by on Apr 21, 2010 at 9:36:44 pm

I'm not saying no one uses the Firestore products successfully. I'm just saying that the number of threads I see on a regular basis that have to do with either a Firestore failure in the field or a format/ingest issue with Firestore footage in post number in the hundreds over the years. The same with P2 is perhaps a few dozen...

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!
Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D.
Watch Formosa- My indie movie shot with the SDX900 and finished with Final Cut Studio.


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Andy StintonRe: A Dinosaur Changes
by on Apr 21, 2010 at 10:56:56 pm

THX to all that have replied. We have a mish mosh of cameras some SD and some HDV ( Canon & Sony) We have been looking at the Firestore FS-H200 Pro and New Edirol F-1 Version 2. This job will be in SD but we will be used for HD in the future . The ability to use the unit(s) on various cameras is a must.

Any comments on these two units. I must admit that I have heard some bad stories about Firestore, but I like the idea of a CF Card..

Mu brain hurts:)





Andy Stinton
Corporate Video
Live & Stage Events
Business Practices


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Noah KadnerRe: A Dinosaur Changes
by on Apr 21, 2010 at 11:19:41 pm

If I were dead set on the idea of an outboard recorder. *And I wouldn't be because most cameras today already shoot to solid state memory anyway. :)

But if I were I'd go for the nanoFlash or AJA Ki Pro. Neither are cheap but you do get what you pay for...

http://www.convergent-design.com/

http://www.ajavideo.com/products/ki-pro/

The Ki Pro records via component and composite inputs to high quality ProRes HQ and can do upconversion and downconversion of formats on the fly. That means you're not stuck with lower quality HDV/DV over Firewire and you can standardize all you cameras to a single ready to edit format vs. a hodge podge of different DV/HDV frame sizes and qualities you'll constantly be working to conform in post instead. Really a massive quality boost and time-saver for a multi-camera/format workflow.


Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!
Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D.
Watch Formosa- My indie movie shot with the SDX900 and finished with Final Cut Studio.


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Bill DavisRe: A Dinosaur Changes
by on Apr 22, 2010 at 7:51:35 pm


Fresh off the DSLR threads might be skewing my perspective, but this sounds TAILOR MADE for DSLR video.

Light and mobile. The 5dMkii in SD mode takes a SUPERB picture - even in low light - especially if you combine it with fast glass.

And you're working with very cheap and accessible media.

Seems like a match made in heaven for a project like this.

FWIW



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Noah KadnerRe: A Dinosaur Changes
by on Apr 22, 2010 at 8:30:09 pm

That is another option- but it's a route you need to test. The DOF control in a 5D totally rocks but sometimes in a run and gun you value easy camera operation and everything in focus over cinematic image quality.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!
Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D.
Watch Formosa- My indie movie shot with the SDX900 and finished with Final Cut Studio.


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Andy StintonRe: A Dinosaur Changes
by on Apr 27, 2010 at 3:01:29 am

Okay went with the Edirol F1 as it offered most bang for the buck .Played with it today very impressive and diversified. Got the extra drive so I can send that off to the editors and still be shooting on the road ..

Lets see if I'm still happy after use in the field.

Andy Stinton
Corporate Video
Live & Stage Events
Business Practices


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