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Re: Apple engineers versus an editor's ability to set persistent in to out points in their footage.

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David Lawrence
Re: Apple engineers versus an editor's ability to set persistent in to out points in their footage.
on Apr 30, 2012 at 12:11:02 am

[Jeremy Garchow] "Well, if I'm not on a shoot, I'd say 85-90% with the other 10% finishing.

I edit a lot. Why? Because I like FCPX and can relate its methods, I'm not a creative editor? "

No no, just curious. We all multitask so I'm just curious about where you're coming from. Like when we had that conversation about DAWs and when you told me you didn't used DAWs professionally, a lightbulb went off for me as to why we were seeing the need for tracks so differently. Just wondering if something like that might be happing again.

[Jeremy Garchow] "But today, right now, of you want persistent (and truly persistent, not sort of persistent) ins an outs, there is a usable method employed in X. When you say it's not possible, I call that bluff becuase it is possible."

Nobody's bluffing. I really think we're talking about two entirely different things. Simon nailed it in this post. This quote is especially relevant:

[Simon Ubsdell] "I am afraid that the apologists who will tell you that Favorites take care of the lack of persistent In AND Out haven't thought about those editors who only want one of those and don't want to have to be bothered about both.

If I have to use Favorites (when I don't care where either my In or my Out is respectively) I will have "favorited" the entire clip either from the In point to the end of the clip or from the Out point to the start of the clip respectively.

That's why it's not good enough. Yes, if you always needed to set BOTH In AND Out then favoriting solves the issue (if you like that kind of thing). But for editors like me it really doesn't work at all."

See also Alex Hawkin's post.

Maybe language is getting in the way here. We're using the same terms to discuss about two conceptually different things.

A range has a persistent start and end.

A range must have both a start and end.

A favorite is a persistant range.

This isn't the same as a marked in and/or out.

In and/or outs mark the cut point.

In and/or out marks can be used together or separately (you can have an In without an Out and visa versa).

In and/or out marks only define a range when used together.

[Simon Ubsdell] "You aren't really setting Ins and Outs in any traditional sense - you're just substituting a keyboard manoeuvre for a mouse action defining a range in the iMovie sense. It's equally obvious why the "undefined" range point will default to either the end of the clip or the start. "

Bingo. Apple's UI designers are trying to map familiar terms and key bindings onto a different function. The fact the menu commands for I and O are "Set Selection Start" and "Set Selection End" means even Apple realizes this is different functionality. Otherwise, they could have called it "Mark In" and Mark Out". Or perhaps they should have used the S and E keys. The name change is intentional. The problem is they're conflating related functions that have different behaviors and usages.

In summary:

Start and End always define range and must be used together.

In/Out defines the cut. They can be used together or separately. When used together, they define range implicitly, but range is often not the focus.

Apples and oranges.

I think favorites are powerful, useful and really great, but they're not a substitute for what we're asking for with persistent in/out marks. I won't be surprised when Apple adds this back just like they've announced a future source monitor. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

David Lawrence

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