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Rick Williams
HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 3:05:19 am

In reading the many posts about problems with importing and rendering and editing of AVCHD and other H.264 video, I thought I'd mention something that I believe to be correct....high-definition (HD) AVC is not necessarily AVCHD. In looking at info about the AVCHD format, it seems to be defined (in part) by;

- H.264/MPEG4-part10/AVC encoded/compressed video

- Dolby Digital/AC3 audio

- MPEG2-transport stream "container" with .mts or .m2ts file extensions

However, there are many cameras that seem to record HD AVC (but not AVCHD). In other words they record H.264/AVC video (which is also known as MPEG4-part10), but may not adhere to the rest of the specifications, in other words they might record other audio formats, resolutions, or use a different file structure (container). For example, I have seen a small hand-held camera that records 1920x1080p, 29.97fps, H.264/AVC encoded video, with AAC/16-bit/48Khz audio, stored in a Quicktime ".mov" file.
This certainly seems to be HD AVC, but is it technically AVCHD ?

I bring this up because I would like to know if apps that support AVCHD, would necessarily support HD AVC such as the aforementioned camera video ??

Regards


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Shane Ross
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 4:08:09 am

Which cameras are these?

If they show up in Log and Transfer, then they shoot a format that FCP recognizes. Not sure about FCE...that only works with very a LIMITED amount of formats.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Rick Williams
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 4:33:39 am

Granted, there are certainly lots of good AVCHD cams out there, I think the Canon HF M30 is one example, but there are also many point&shoots and some of the DSLR's that record H.264 but not technically AVCHD...one example being the Kodak Zi8 (H.264/AVC, 1920x1080p 30fps(29.97), AAC 16bit/48Khz audio), Quicktime .mov file container), but there are many more.
They shoot nice video, especially if your a not-so-great skier on the slopes with your kids :) However, since it is not "AVCHD" and there is no AVCHD "file structure" in terms of directories/folders like "CONTENTS" "VIDEO", "THUMBNAILS", etc...etc...will L&T (log & transfer) still work ??

Thank you.


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Rick Williams
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 5:51:33 am

...and can anyone explain the benefit of AVCHD (ie; .mts or .m2ts) systems, since there seem to be so many people having problems and/or misunderstandings when it comes to things like "backup" and importing. In other words, the info out there says you must copy "the whole file system"....essentially the entire disk with all associated folders, etc for AVCHD. However, with the cams mentioned earlier, the .mov files are self-contained. My understanding is you can simply drag&drop individual files without having to worry about whether you properly copied the whole file system/structure (including any possible "hidden files" which may or may not be transferred with a simple Finder-copy) ?
If these cams record 1920x1080p H.264/MPG4/AVC video, and are easy to "media manage"...does someone know or understand any benefit to AVCHD ??
P.S. I realize that the specifics of the encoding parameters and algorithms may be different between the simple-cams and the AVCHD cams...such as CAVLC -vs- CABAC or High-Profile H.264 v -vs- Baseline Profile, etc....but for most users, even the base profiles and levels provide quite high-quality HD video.

Regards...


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Shane Ross
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 6:20:13 am

Everything you are mentioning is very consumer level. All the cameras are smaller handycams, or point and shoot cameras. And Final Cut Pro is a PROFESSIONAL editing application, meant to be used with professional level formats. And there are AVCHD cameras that are professional level that FCP works with...HMC-150, HMC-40, Sony NXCAM, Panasonic GH1 DSLR.

When you get into the handycam market, and point and shoot...those really aren't designed to be used with editing applications. They are designed as recording devices for family memories...you shoot, and then later watch the whole thing. Or, you use THEIR editing software.

If you are serious about working on the pro level, it's time to research professional level cameras.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Rick Williams
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 7:53:50 am

Sure and I agree, yes FCP is pro-level and there are pro-cameras, but lots of people edit video shot on prosumer (or lesser) cameras. But in posting, I was hoping to get knowledgeable peoples insight into the question about the benefits (if any) of the AVCHD (ie; .mts .m2ts) format, especially considering the negative of complex file system/workflows of AVCHD...and the relative positives of other formats/containers that encode with the same H.264/AVC codecs and hidef quality without the complexity of the AVCHD file structure/system ?? In other words, being able to import (as well as save, backup, etc...) individual media files instead of entire disks (flash cards) or "whole file systems"
Are there not any prosumer/pro level cams that record in .mov format with hi-def H.264/AVC video at high-quality , that allow the ease of use of dragging-&-dropping media files for easy transfer to storage/backup ?
Certainly, the pro cams have pro features, great optics, higher bit-rates (maybe) and other things that make them pro...but I don't see how that should preclude them from recording the same great hi-def H.264/AVC video into a more user-friendly system then the AVCHD/.mts method ?? Aren't we just talking "containers"... (.mov -vs- .m2ts) and associated file-systems with the video being the same (ie; 1920x1080p H.264/AVC) ??

--


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Shane Ross
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 12:11:46 pm

[Rick Williams] " I was hoping to get knowledgeable peoples insight into the question about the benefits (if any) of the AVCHD (ie; .mts .m2ts) format, especially considering the negative of complex file system/workflows of AVCHD"

It is an acquisition format that has a low data rate, and therefor does not take up a lot of space...meaning you can shoot to SD cards...and have long record times. But, that format is NOT an editing format. Sure, Premiere works with it natively...but it struggles with it, because it is very complex. FCP and Avid do not work with it natively...they need to convert it to a working editing format.

[Rick Williams] "and the relative positives of other formats/containers that encode with the same H.264/AVC codecs and hidef quality without the complexity of the AVCHD file structure/system ??"

And those would be...? Even without the complex card structure...which takes up VERY little disk space so I'm unsure why you want to not keep that...it is the format that is too complex to be edited natively. H.264 is VERY processor intensive, and isn't designed to be edited.

[Rick Williams] "Are there not any prosumer/pro level cams that record in .mov format with hi-def H.264/AVC video at high-quality , that allow the ease of use of dragging-&-dropping media files for easy transfer to storage/backup ? "

Even if they record do a direct .mov format, they still need to be converted...so I don't see the benefit of just having a file or two to copy, vs the full structure. You can copy the entire structure by dragging and dropping, and the other files take up VERY little space. Talking a few MB at most, not GB. But DSLRs record to direct H.264 formats, like the Canon DSLRs...and I think the Panasonic GH2 does AVCHD .mov files. But, they still need to be converted. If you want to use FCP to convert, you need the full card structure. If you want to use Compressor, Clipwrap2 or MPEG STREAMCLIP, you can keep just the mov files.

[Rick Williams] "Certainly, the pro cams have pro features, great optics, higher bit-rates (maybe) and other things that make them pro...but I don't see how that should preclude them from recording the same great hi-def H.264/AVC video into a more user-friendly system then the AVCHD/.mts method ??"

METADATA...extra data like TIMECODE is included in these other files. And that is a very professional commodity. I fail to see how .mov files are more user friendly. They still can't be edited directly, they need to be converted. The only thing that you get with those .mov files is people THINKING they can simply work with them without converting...opening the doors to making mistakes. That, to me, is NOT user friendly.

[Rick Williams] "Aren't we just talking "containers"... (.mov -vs- .m2ts) and associated file-systems with the video being the same (ie; 1920x1080p H.264/AVC) ??
"


Perhaps. But I confess that I have zero engineering knowledge behind why some are m2ts and some are .mov. I don't care...there is no point in knowing really. Both need to be converted...so I backup the full card to ensure that I can do that properly.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Rafael Amador
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 12:31:14 pm

There are three things that basically any codec try to achieve:
- Fidelity.
- Small files
- Easy workflow.
To get this is all about the money you are ready to pay.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Rick Williams
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 2:18:18 pm

First, thank you for having this discussion with me, I think this is all great information to know and understand, and by understanding some of the tech details, maybe people will be able to resolve some of the frustrations we've all encountered in one way or another.

With that said...
[Shane Ross]"It is an acquisition format that has a low data rate, and therefor does not take up a lot of space...meaning you can shoot to SD cards...and have long record times. But, that format is NOT an editing format."

This is true regardless of the container being .mov or .m2ts, since in the end the video is H.264/AVC which we all know is a long-GOP encoder. It is interesting, however, that consumer apps like iMovie '11 can edit AVC/H.264 natively and seems to my eyes to play in realtime even when I've added transitions, etc. Of course, any app can crawl depending on exactly what you've added. Even in FC, the bold effects are the ones that can play in realtime, others not. I know FCP has pro-features that iMovie doesn't, but I don't see how people say "AVCHD is so processor-intensive that it can't/shouldn't be edited natively....since I'm using the same procesor (ie; same computer) with iMovie and it decodes/decompresses 1920x1080 H.264/AVC video just fine ??
And no, the clips are NOT in Apple Intermmediate Codec format if you import with the "optimize" option un-checked. You can see this in the properties of the imported clip stored in the "Events" folder. So theoretically it's not "optimized", but if it plays and edits just fine, who cares.

The flavor of AVC known as AVC-Intra, as I understand, is an I-frame-only codec...which means it shoud be VERY editor-friendly. The problem is finding prosumer cameras that record AVC-Intra. Does FC edit this natively ?

[Shane Ross] "METADATA...extra data like TIMECODE is included in these other files."

If it is true that metadata like timecode are NOT included in the .mov H.264/AVC HD files, then this is a good point.


[Shane Ross] "The only thing that you get with those .mov files is people THINKING they can simply work with them without converting...opening the doors to making mistakes. That, to me, is NOT user friendly"

The point is since both formats/containers have HD H.264/AVC video, and simpler apps can apparently edit them natively, I was hoping someone would chime in and explain WHY the more feature-rich apps (ie; Final Cut Pro /Express) don't support this ?? I think many people WOULD consider it very user-friendly if they could simply drag&drop media files and edit them without having to worry about "..the doors to making mistakes". It would be nice if we could "open doors" (to creativity and less frustrating workflows and compatability issues) and not worry about whether there is a danger lurking behind that door.


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Shane Ross
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 3:12:36 pm

[Rick Williams] "It is interesting, however, that consumer apps like iMovie '11 can edit AVC/H.264 natively and seems to my eyes to play in realtime even when I've added transitions, etc. "

You are mistaken. iMovie converts the footage to an editing codec...Apple Intermediate Codec to be exact.

[Rick Williams] "but I don't see how people say "AVCHD is so processor-intensive that it can't/shouldn't be edited natively....since I'm using the same procesor (ie; same computer) with iMovie and it decodes/decompresses 1920x1080 H.264/AVC video just fine ??"

Precisely. It DECODES the codec to an editing codec. It does not edit it natively. Adobe Premiere does edit it natively, but acts like a sick dog in deep mud when it does.

[Rick Williams] "And no, the clips are NOT in Apple Intermmediate Codec format if you import with the "optimize" option un-checked."

You are mistaken:

http://store.apple.com/us/question/answers/product/MC625Z/A?pqid=QDKHFTKJ2P...

http://www.macworld.com/article/155123/2010/10/firstlookimovie11.html
"Despite the prevalence of camcorders that record in AVCHD format, iMovie ’11 does not offer the ability to edit AVCHD footage directly; the video is still transcoded into AIC (Apple Intermediate Codec) for editing. (AVCHD is highly compressed and efficient for direct playback, but is more complicated to edit because the software must reconstruct frames on the fly based on reference frames.)"

[Rick Williams] "The flavor of AVC known as AVC-Intra, as I understand, is an I-frame-only codec...which means it shoud be VERY editor-friendly. The problem is finding prosumer cameras that record AVC-Intra."

Only professional cameras shoot that format...and only Panasonic models. HIgh end models as this is a very high end 10-bit codec. FCP imports this natively, but doesn't offer native editing, as there are no sequence settings for this. You must use a ProRes timeline. But that's fine, it works.

[Rick Williams] "The point is since both formats/containers have HD H.264/AVC video, and simpler apps can apparently edit them natively,"

Which? Not iMovie. And Premiere is not a simpler app...

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Rick Williams
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 4:32:39 pm

And there is my point (title of the post)...I did not say "AVCHD", I said HD AVC. These are 1920x1080 H.264/AVC video files, just as good as AVCHD but in a different container/file. Perfectly good video. Although, I did admit previously that if metadata like timecode is not supported by these formats, then that's not good. Still need to verify that.

[Rick Williams] "It is interesting, however, that consumer apps like iMovie '11 can edit AVC/H.264 natively and seems to my eyes to play in realtime even when I've added transitions, etc. "

[Shane Ross] You are mistaken. iMovie converts the footage to an editing codec...Apple Intermediate Codec to be exact.

Not always. If you import an H.264/AVC media file in iMovie '11, by DEFAULT the "Optimize" box is checked and if it is 1080, you will find the imported video (stored in the "Movies/iMovie Events" folder) has been transcoded to AIC as you say. HOWEVER, if you UNCHECK that box, iMovie brings the video into the Events folder in its native format (H.264/AVC HD in this case)...and plays in realtime, even with "effects" like transitions. You can double-check by using Quicktime (or any other) inspector on the imported video....it is EXACTLY as the original file, same size, same codec details, same everything. The benefit is video that doesn't change doesn't need to be decompressed/recompressed (think quality), and the stored file sizes are on the order of 1/10th the size of Apple Intermmediate Codec...and probably even much smaller ratio for ProRes.

So again, if iMovie can play/edit/add transitions, etc to this media in realtime (at least I find no discernable issue) on "computer/cpu X"...why can't Final Cut Pro ?? It would make things quicker and easier for FCP users ?


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Rafael Amador
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 5:09:16 pm

[Rick Williams] "I said HD AVC."
HD AVC doesn't exist.
Google the term, and aside this thread you won't find nothing.

[Rick Williams] "Not always. If you import an H.264/AVC media file in iMovie '11, by DEFAULT the "Optimize" box is checked and if it is 1080, you will find the imported video (stored in the "Movies/iMovie Events" folder) has been transcoded to AIC as you say. HOWEVER, if you UNCHECK that box, iMovie brings the video into the Events folder in its native format (H.264/AVC HD in this case)...and plays in realtime, even with "effects" like transitions. You can double-check by using Quicktime (or any other) inspector on the imported video....it is EXACTLY as the original file, same size, same codec details, same everything. The benefit is video that doesn't change doesn't need to be decompressed/recompressed (think quality), and the stored file sizes are on the order of 1/10th the size of Apple Intermmediate Codec...and probably even much smaller ratio for ProRes.

So again, if iMovie can play/edit/add transitions, etc to this media in realtime (at least I find no discernable issue) on "computer/cpu X"...why can't Final Cut Pro ?? It would make things quicker and easier for FCP users ?"

I don't know much about iMovie.
If things are as you say, then you are working with a kind of Proxy file.
You start saying that this "the Non-Optimized" way.
Whats going on inside? Only Apple knows.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Rick Williams
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 6:13:09 pm

Folks...it's not a marketing term, it's just a description of the video.
I believe video that is 1920x1080i, square pixel, 16x9 (and some other details)...counts as one of the formats that is practically universally considered to be high-def (HD) video. And H.264 = MPEG4-part10 = AVC. Therefore 1920x1080i, H.264 is accurately described as HD AVC, or you could say HD H.264, or any other combination of these terms.
However, "AVCHD" is a vendor-created(Panasonic & Sony ??) for a subset of the H.264/MPEG4-part10/AVC encoding parameters coupled with DD/AC3 audio encoding, and stored in an MPEG2 transport stream as a .mts or .m2ts file.

No need to Google the term.


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Rafael Amador
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 7:34:20 pm

[Rick Williams] "I believe video that is 1920x1080i, square pixel, 16x9 (and some other details)...counts as one of the formats that is practically universally considered to be high-def (HD) video. And H.264 = MPEG4-part10 = AVC. Therefore 1920x1080i, H.264 is accurately described as HD AVC, or you could say HD H.264, or any other combination of these terms."
1920x1080 SQ and 1280x720 are the two HD standards, but that means nothing. Most of all consumer cameras are doing that today: Canon, Panas, JVC even the GO-Pro etc.
Basically all these cameras are using the same ACHD codec.
The point is that saying AVCHD or HD AVC technically changes nothing.

[Rick Williams] "However, "AVCHD" is a vendor-created(Panasonic & Sony ??) for a subset of the H.264/MPEG4-part10/AVC encoding parameters coupled with DD/AC3 audio encoding, and stored in an MPEG2 transport stream as a .mts or .m2ts file."
Vendor created or not at the end of the day PANA and SONY are the one are developing all the codecs, Pro or Consumer orientated.
The term AVC (Advanced video codec) belong to SONY and PANA too, and the term "HD AVC" it doesn't exist on any technical paper. And in case that exist, its belong to them too. The term AVC is copyrighted by these companies.

Rick, all the MP4 Standard is just a development of the old MPEG-2 standard (where PANA and SONY are part of the "Consortium" from the beginning).
MPEG-2 was too limited (422/8b, picture size,..etc) so they needed to wide the norm. They ended up with a container (MP4) able to carry many different codecs.

But in the end you are right: Here we have mentioned only two codecs (MPEG-2 and H264). The rest are all containers. And here there are real market intentions. Basically they are complicating things for the user. They are packing the very same stuff on containers that needs different players. It wouldn't be complicated to make a player for all that stuff.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Rick Williams
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 28, 2011 at 8:39:32 pm

Rafael,

[Rafael Amador] "The term AVC (Advanced video codec) belong to SONY and PANA too,..."

I thought AVC was a standard developed by a joint committee of MPEG and ISO members. Below is from the ISO.org site;

"The MPEG-4 AVC standard, embodied in the International Standard ISO/IEC 14496-10 and the ITU-T recommendation H.264, is a specification for high quality video compression. Particularly applicable for high definition (HD) applications, it forms part of a series of MPEG-4 standards related to multimedia."

It is standard 14496-10, it is also known as H.264 or MPEG4-part10...or AVC. If the encoded video is 1920x1080 then it is high-def H.264/AVC.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC


[Rafael Amador] "The point is that saying AVCHD or HD AVC technically changes nothing."

Yes it does. High definition video encoding using the H.264/MPEG4-part10/AVC algorithms and structures can be stored in many file formats/containers, such as the .MOV files I noted...but "AVCHD" (Pana/Sony) as was mentioned earliest on in this post is very specific as to what resolutions, accompanying audio formats, and file structures are used (ie; AC3 + MPEG2-ts .mts/.m2ts). And for whatever reason (and this is the point of this post) even though the video contained within the .mts files (which is H.264/AVC encoded video) might be the same as the H.264/AVC hi-def video contained within the .MOV files (there are common formats/resolutions), I can import and edit the H.264 .mov without transcoding into an intermmediate codec...but not the AVCHD/.m2ts ??

See this post as well from Steve Mullen;
http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=12623005

The 2nd post where he says "Don't tell Sony and Panasonic that H.264/AVC is AVCHD! " and adds a little more clarification.


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Rafael Amador
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 29, 2011 at 1:42:48 am

[Rick Williams] "I thought AVC was a standard developed by a joint committee of MPEG and ISO members. Below is from the ISO.org site;

"The MPEG-4 AVC standard, embodied in the International Standard ISO/IEC 14496-10 and the ITU-T recommendation H.264, is a specification for high quality video compression. Particularly applicable for high definition (HD) applications, it forms part of a series of MPEG-4 standards related to multimedia.""


Rick: Who do you think is that committee?
Who do you think is behind the MPEG Consortium?
Please read this. I copied from the PANASONIC AF-100 brochure:


Starts saying that AVCHD (and his logo) is a property of SONY and PANASONIC.
The ISO have recognized and registered the standard.




[Rick Williams] "[Rafael Amador] "The point is that saying AVCHD or HD AVC technically changes nothing."

Yes it does. High definition video encoding using the H.264/MPEG4-part10/AVC algorithms and structures can be stored in many file formats/containers...........,"

Can you point me to any implementation of the HD AVC codec?

[Rick Williams] "See this post as well from Steve Mullen;
http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=12623005"


He sais:
"In the past one could choose a camera that shot 720p30 H.264/AVC and know no time would be wasted converting to 720p30 AIC. True, editing wasn't as smooth, but lots of time was saved.
Now iMovie treats 720p30 H.264/AVC as though it were AVCHD and forces an optimize.."


What he is simply saying is that something has been changed inside iMovie and know behaves different.
He is not really talking about two different kind of codecs.
That is what I understand.
Anyway should be interesting to know which camera is he talking about.
Cheers,
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Rafael Amador
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 29, 2011 at 1:53:41 am

Hi Rick,
I've read again the thread of Mr Muller.
What I see is that we are going nuts with marketing issues.
They are selling the same thing with different names.
That's nothing new.
Think about FireWire (Apple) and iLink (SONY).
The same thing with two different market names.
Was developed together by both companies.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Rick Williams
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Jan 29, 2011 at 2:35:15 am

Rafael,

Your paste from the Panasonic brochure is about AVCHD...and I've always agreed/understood that AVCHD is from Panasonic/Sony. But I'm talking about AVC/H.264/MPEG4-part10. I've described my understanding of AVCHD several times in this thread. And the title of the thread says it all.

[Rafael Amador] "Can you point me to any implementation of the HD AVC codec?"

There is another thread on the forums, where the poster writes "The codec is apparently Ambarella AVC encoder, 1280 x 720, 59.94."

There are many, but at least in this case, there is the one from Ambarella, see below for more info;

http://www.ambarella.com/news/13/74/Ambarella-Introduces-Third-Generation-S...

It says in part; "...is targeted at high-definition (HD) camcorders using H.264/AVC compression technology."

The video from the aformentioned poster is from a Kodak Zi8...in .mov format...not AVCHD, but it is AVC/H.264 encoded video, created by the Ambarella encoder/codec in a 1280x720p format. I have also seen the same but in 1920x1080p format.

-Regards


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Rafael Amador
Re: HD AVC is not necessarily AVCHD
on Feb 14, 2011 at 2:47:51 am

Hi Rick,
I found this article that is very clarifying about the H264-family issues:
http://www.divergentmedia.com/blog/fullpost/h264_decoding_on_the_mac

He points to the only real problem: " Well, there are as many flavors of H.264 as there are members of the standards committee".

A universal reader reader is what we need.
Cheers,
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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