FORUMS: list search recent posts

poor titles quality

COW Forums : Apple Final Cut Pro Legacy

<< PREVIOUS   •   FAQ   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
jeanne hilary
poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 1:40:59 pm

I am trying to output my movie, downconverting for SD tape and DVD.
Here's how I made the movie:
1920x1080
ProRes4444
24fps
pixel aspect square
render all YUV in high precision YUV

Along with the titles, the movie contains lots of graphics that I made in AE, outputting from there with the same settings and using RGBA.

Overall, the movie looks a bit softer in SD, which would seem normal, but the titles look absolutely terrible. Jaggies and very blurry. There is one image that is computer generated, a line drawing of 1 pixel white lines, which also doesn't look great on the diagonals--the lines are broken and not supercrisp--but not nearly as bad as the type.

Clearly, I'm not creating the titles properly--I've tried some different things, but the result is always the same--not even close to acceptable.

I've read around CC and some other places and I don't seem to find information specific to this problem.

Thanks for your help.

Jeanne


Return to posts index

Tom Wolsky
Re: How many files are inside one bin
on Dec 2, 2010 at 2:37:53 pm

First, do not ever make a one pixel line for use in video. It's always going to look bad. Minimum is two pixels and three is better. Second, the line should not be white. The RGB values should not exceed 235s. Also a one pixel vertical motion blur can be very helpful.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


Return to posts index

jeanne hilary
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 2:52:05 pm

Thanks very much Tom!
The real problem is the text, though.
Any information that would be most appreciated.

Jeanne


Return to posts index


Tom Wolsky
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 3:00:49 pm

Information on the text would be helpful. The same rules apply. No white. No bright colors reds and oranges. Avoid seriffed fonts unless they're large.

What's being done exactly to make them SD? What format? What settings? Where are you going when you're making the media SD? Where are you looking at the finished output.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


Return to posts index

jeanne hilary
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 3:45:39 pm

The text is Trade Gothic Bold Condensed No. 20 and Trade Gothic Condensed No 18. The minimum size is 72px.
The color is blue #00A7F.

I'm sending the HD sequence from FCP to Compressor where I'm using these settings:

MPEG-2 video elementary stream
Format m2v
width 720
height 480
pixel aspect ratio NTSC CCIR 601/DV (this is what I get when I select 720x480)
Frame rate 29.97 (because I read that dvds have to be this rate)
Aspect ratio 4:3 (because I made a sequence 1920x1440 and dropped my 1920x1080 into it. The movie is actually a custom size, 1920x960. There are lots of square photographs in my movie, and I didn't want to crop them.)
Field dominance top first
Average bit rate 15 (Mbps)
2 pass VBR enabled
Max bit rate 20 (Mbps)
High qauality
Best motion estimation
Closed GOP size 15, structure IBBP

I should mention that I have never been able to produce a dvd that played in a dvd player or a pc, only on apple computers--but I haven't tested the above settings yet. With these settings I can only report that the type looks awful, the drawing a little better.
After trying lots of different settings in compressor and dvd studio and deciding to throw in the towel and give my hd file to a duplication house, it turned out that their results were just as bad as mine, the only difference being that their dvd plays on a dvd player.
Also they told me they're using compressor as well, which convinced me the problem is with how I'm creating the titles.
Also it annoys me to pay someone to make something with equipment I own only because I'm too frustrated and intimidated to learn how to use it properly.
These are the circumstances that bring us together.

Jeanne


Return to posts index

Chris Tompkins
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 3:55:36 pm

Aspect ratio 4:3 (because I made a sequence 1920x1440 and dropped my 1920x1080 into it. - NO


Choose 16 by 9, your edit is HD. You should make a 16X9 DVD

Don't nest your comp, don't make a custom size comp.

Edit HD native size to video.
Output a ref movie file.
drop that file into compressor
choose SD DVD 16X9 Letterbox
frame control set to best.
Dial in the data rate to match your program length.

Chris Tompkins
Video Atlanta LLC


Return to posts index


jeanne hilary
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 4:06:29 pm

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I don't understand a single word.
Would it be too much trouble to ask you to explain what you mean?
I'm sure this would be helpful to other beginners having some of the same problems I am.

For example:
Choose 16 by 9, your edit is HD. You should make a 16X9 DVD
Why?
Don't nest your comp...
This is recommended in lots of situations by other people at CC, in fact this is how I came to set the project up in this way. Why do you say it's wrong?

There are 10 dvd settings in compressor--which one are you suggesting I use?

As far as dialing, I have no idea what that means or how to implement it.

Also, I'm trying to get an answer on how to make titles that look sharp. As it is, the video and graphics look ok, except the one I mentioned that is computer generated, but the titles looks much worse. If you have some thoughts on this I would appreciate knowing them.

Thanks for your help.

Jeanne


Return to posts index

Tom Wolsky
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 3:57:49 pm

Don't use net color values. Use RGB color values.

1920x1440? What the heck is that? That's a weird size. Why are you bothering with HD settings? You can't make up 4:3 HD. All HD is widescreen. If you need 4:3 you need to be working in uncompressed SD 720x486.

Field dominance looks wrong. Should be lower for NTSC DVD shouldn't it?

The data rates are way, way to high for set-top box playback. How are you getting those numbers? Using transport or program stream settings? Max data rate should not be more than 8 including audio for standard player delivery. Look at the Apple presets for DVD.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


Return to posts index

jeanne hilary
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 4:27:23 pm

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your reply.

When you say use RGB, do you mean instead of YUV in FCP sequence settings?

I made the movie in HD so I could also output to HD. For the moment I need to downconvert to SD for HDCAM (requested by a film festival) and dvd (for screeners).


The numbers I'm getting for the data rate is what comes automatically with the setting I'm using in compressor: elementary stream.
Is this the reason why the dvds I'm making don't play? Or are there more.

I appreciate your time--if you know of where I can find some information that will help me fill in the blanks that would also be great.

Thanks,

Jeanne


Return to posts index


Tom Wolsky
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 4:51:13 pm

No, the graphics colors. You used blue #00A7F. That's net colors, no? Use RGB values. You're making the graphics in AE, correct? That's RGB only.

Elementary stream is for transmission not for DVD delivery. Look at the DVD presets. None of them go beyond 8. The top value that's usually sued is 7.7. Keep the data rate to these values and the disc will play in a set-top player.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


Return to posts index

Chris Tompkins
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 3:01:33 pm

Tell us your settings and steps in converting to DVD SD?

Chris Tompkins
Video Atlanta LLC


Return to posts index

jeanne hilary
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 5:33:26 pm

Hi Chris,hi Tom,

I'm sending the HD sequence to Compressor. Since your post I'm sending the 1920 x 960 file instead of nesting it in another sequence.
The sequence settings and Compressor settings are listed above, but since yours and Tom's last posts I'm now doing this in compressor:

using dvd: best quality 90 minutes
file format mpeg-2
extension m2v
sd dvd
video format ntsc
frame rate 29.97 (but can you tell me if a dvd can play my movie in its native 23.98 fps?)
aspect ratio 16:9
field dominance bottom first

As for the color settings, I could just as easily have said:

R: 0
G: 0.0398
B: 0.498

It's just from habit that I used the hexadecimal notation, since I work usually on things for the web.
If there's a problem with this color, I would be interested to know.
And do you know why the text looks so much more terrible than the video and graphics?

Thank you both so much for your help.

Jeanne


Return to posts index


Chris Tompkins
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 5:38:40 pm

Nice. You're on the right track. This will yield much better results.

Keep in mind that SD will never look as sharp as HD. Just the way it is.
Text will suffer from compression. Try to avoid small thin fonts will help.

When your mpeg files are complete and if you have room on the disc for more, recompress at a higher rate.
You can fit 4.2GB or so on a single side disc. This will help you maximize your quality to space ratio.

Chris Tompkins
Video Atlanta LLC


Return to posts index

Tom Wolsky
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 6:24:36 pm

Where are you seeing the terrible text? On the output file? Are you looking at it in the QT7 player set to high quality playback? Could you post a screen shot somewhere?

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


Return to posts index

jeanne hilary
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 9:15:43 pm

The text quality degrades when I output to m2v, or to SD tape (I haven't tried HD tape yet).
In the quicktime output file from fcp or ae, it looks fine.
It looks equally terrible on my apple monitor, and on an ntsc monitor.

The way I am making this type is: in ae I use the type tool. Then I am exporting it to fcp as a quicktime file using pro res 4444, 32bit, RGB + alpha. I've also tried making it as a photoshop file because what I can't understand is why the type looks so much worse than the graphics, which I am importing into fcp in exactly the same way, not to mention the video which looks ok, too, although neither as good as they do in HD.

Here are the screenshots.

Thanks for your help.

Jeanne







Return to posts index


Tom Wolsky
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 9:43:06 pm

Trying look at these in the QT7 pro player with the clips set to high quality playback. The MPEG-2 doesn't look bad for a heavily compressed format, a little soft, but about what I'd expect for MPEG-2.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


Return to posts index

jeanne hilary
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 10:12:02 pm

It's the text I'm concerned about. The type quality isn't normal or acceptable, especially on the thinner type. I agree the graphics look ok, normal even, which is why I posted them along with the type screen shots, to show the difference in quality between the text and the images in the same project.

As I said in my earlier post, I have looked at this text on tape output as well, and it looks awful there too.
I have seen dvds of digital video projects like mine and the type looks readable and crisp, not the way this looks at all.
There must be something wrong with how I'm making this text; can you indicate to me what is the correct way to make it, or direct me to a resource.

Thanks,

Jeanne


Return to posts index

Tom Wolsky
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 2, 2010 at 10:38:26 pm

What kind of tape? Digibeta? Recorded from the FCP timeline?

The text in the first image is pretty dreadful. I suspect it's the MPEG-2 encoding, the dark blue and black is very hard to do on the edges, almost like a gradient. The third is not so bad because of the size of the text. Take a look at the credits on the end of a DVD. They're just dreadful. There is only so much you can do with MPEG-2.

Philip Hodgetts has an excellent article on creating titles for video http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/perfect_titles_phil.html It's old but it still applies, especially if you're going to MPEG-2, which is the same size and heavily compressed like DV.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


Return to posts index

jeanne hilary
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 3, 2010 at 4:06:30 pm

Hi Tom,
The output was to betaSP, from a quicktime proRes 4444 file.

Here are the most dreadful titles with the following settings, from the link in your post.
R: 16
G: 16
B: 235

Opacity: 80%
Gaussian blur (on type): 0.3
Noise (on background) 2%

Made in AE, saved as a proRes 4444 file, imported to FCP then sent to compressor, using the settings above.

They definitely look better! Sadly, my question is: is this the best I can hope for?

And one last question: must I set the frame rate to 29.97 for dvd, or can any regular dvd player play 23.98?

Thanks for your help!

Jeanne


Previous settings for comparison



new settings above


Return to posts index

Tom Wolsky
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 3, 2010 at 4:27:31 pm

For MPEG-2 that may be as good as she goes. For me the blue's still too dark for good legibility. I'm just not getting enough separation from the black for my taste. Maybe a gray edge, not wild about that either.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


Return to posts index

jeanne hilary
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 3, 2010 at 5:47:50 pm

Thanks.
Any final words on the 23.98 vs 29.97 for dvd question? Are there any drawbacks to 23.98fps for dvd?

Thanks for all your help.

Jeanne


Return to posts index

Tom Wolsky
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 3, 2010 at 6:41:46 pm

None at all. 23.976 has advantages because you can up the data rate if you have to because of the lower frame count.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


Return to posts index

jeanne hilary
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 3, 2010 at 8:45:24 pm

Here is the same text at 23.98fps.
The only difference in the settings in compressor seems to be that,it's not possible to select field order, it defaults to progressive. Otherwise it's still ntsc and 16:9.
If this setting will result in a dvd that will play in a normal dvd player, I prefer this.

Thanks for your help!
Jeanne



Return to posts index

Tom Wolsky
Re: How many files are inside one bin/poor titles quality
on Dec 3, 2010 at 9:02:03 pm

Much better on a computer, but before you were showing me interlaced media, which is really designed for television display. You have to allow for that you're looking at it on a computer screen, or else monitor your media on a production video monitor.

All the best,

Tom

Class on Demand DVDs "Complete Training for FCP7," "Basic Training for FCS" and "Final Cut Express Made Easy"
Author: "Final Cut Pro 5 Editing Essentials" and "Final Cut Express 4 Editing Workshop"


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]