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5DtoRGB - why?

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Joe Orange
5DtoRGB - why?
on Oct 1, 2010 at 4:51:54 pm

Apparently, new software 5DtoRGB wipes the floor with Mpeg StreamClip in terms of quality of converted to ProRes footage.
Yet converting 5D footage in FCP to ProRes is virtually the same in look to the original H.264 file.
Therefore, why would I want to convert in anything other than FCP in the first place or am I missing something?


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Michael Sacci
Re: 5DtoRGB - why?
on Oct 1, 2010 at 5:06:32 pm

I'm assuming that you are talking about Log and Transfer in FCP to ProRes.

That is my workflow, but that is the real issue for me, it is what workflow works better for you. THere is a bug with the Canon plug in and it is recommended that you do nothing else on the computer while the files are transferring in. Clip can get chopped if you do other things. But the fact that L&T puts TOD TC on the clips makes it the only way I do conversions. But the other ways are not wrong.


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Joe Orange
Re: 5DtoRGB - why?
on Oct 1, 2010 at 10:33:35 pm

Hi Michael,
No Log and Transfer, just importing a regular H.264 produced by a 5D that needs to converted to ProRes.

Anybody else use Rarevision's 5DtoRGB?


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Shane Ross
Re: 5DtoRGB - why?
on Oct 1, 2010 at 11:23:52 pm

First time I heard of it.

Well, if you bring in the raw H.264 into FCP, of course it will look the same...it IS the same. FCP doesn't convert unless you tell it to. It just makes clips that point to the original media. But editing H.264 in FCP is just asking for slow and painful days behind the keyboard. I have used Grinder, and Log and transfer. I prefer log and transfer.

How are you judging this quality change? Not on the computer monitor, surely. I believe that H.264 is RGB, and ProRes is YUV...there will be a difference when you do that. Proper video colorspace.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Thomas Worth
Re: 5DtoRGB - why?
on Oct 2, 2010 at 1:22:24 am

Importing H.264 directly into FCP means QuickTime must reconstruct frames from the H.264 decoder on the fly -- hence the sluggish performance. Plus, it does not do a great job of this, since the QuickTime H.264 decoder seems to be optimized for speed and doesn't differentiate between interlaced and progressive material when rebuilding chroma.

Transcoding to ProRes is preferable because each frame is discretely accounted for, whereas this is not the case with H.264 (only changes between I frames are stored, and so it is not an ideal format for editing).

H.264 is YCbCr with 4:2:0 sampling, not RGB. ProRes is YCbCr with 4:2:2 sampling. Both store luminance as full-raster.

5DtoRGB achieves superior chroma results because it does not rely on QuickTime's flawed H.264 decoder like almost every other transcoder out there. Many independent tests have been done that show the difference this makes.


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Rafael Amador
Re: 5DtoRGB - why?
on Oct 2, 2010 at 2:27:09 am

[Joe Orange] "Apparently, new software 5DtoRGB wipes the floor with Mpeg StreamClip in terms of quality of converted to ProRes footage."
5DtoRGB is a little application able to do just one task and with a very specific stuff. Please don't compare with MPEGStreamclip.
5DtoRGB improves the transcoding because it filters the Chroma when going from the H264 420 to 422 or 444. Instead of just averaging the values to fill the chroma holes, uses some more intelligent algorythms.
(similar the Nattresse Chroma filters). All this is done in RGB 32b FP.
I've tried once but was way toooooooo slow.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Joe Orange
Re: 5DtoRGB - why?
on Oct 2, 2010 at 6:03:33 am

Thanks guys

Shane - I am not nor am I planning to work in H.264 in FCP for obvious reasons but am looking at the best way to convert to ProRes without losing quality and I'm using a calibrated Apple monitor to judge these blatant differences.

Thomas - I converted the same H.264 clip from a 5D to ProRes with all 3 applications, MPEGStreamclip, 5DtoRGB and FCP.
The result from MPRGStreamclip came out looking around a stop darker and with color shift compared to the original H.264.
The 5DtoRGB clip was darker by only about a third of a stop with a little color shift.
The conversion made via FCP was virtually identical to the original H.264 that came out of the camera, which is great - yes?

Rafael - why can't I compare results from MPEGStreamclip and 5DtoRGB when the results are different when used for the same task?


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Shane Ross
Re: 5DtoRGB - why?
on Oct 2, 2010 at 6:38:42 am

First off, thanks for correcting my misunderstanding of RGB vs YUV.... Now.

[Joe Orange] "and I'm using a calibrated Apple monitor to judge these blatant differences."

That is a COMPUTER DISPLAY...not a VIDEO MONITOR. Completely different color space. Computer displays are RGB...you need YUV. You need an IO Capture card, and an HDTV or Broadcast monitor to properly judge your footage. That "calibration" is for PRINT work...print colors, not video.

Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Joe Orange
Re: 5DtoRGB - why?
on Oct 2, 2010 at 9:07:15 am

So if I get a video monitor, it will all look ok?


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Thomas Worth
Re: 5DtoRGB - why?
on Oct 2, 2010 at 10:22:23 am

Well, the quality difference is such that it is possible to detect on a non-calibrated display (the chroma aliasing, anyway). However, I agree 100% that any judgments about color should be made on a proper calibrated display being fed from hardware dedicated to this purpose (like a Blackmagic Intensity or DeckLink). Trying to judge color on the Mac's primary display isn't a good idea because there are several layers of graphics-related APIs that must be traversed before an image is displayed. With dedicated video hardware, the decompressed codec output is typically sent directly to the monitor without and meddling (unless you are applying LUTs, etc).


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Rafael Amador
Re: 5DtoRGB - why?
on Oct 2, 2010 at 11:14:24 am

[Joe Orange] "Rafael - why can't I compare results from MPEGStreamclip and 5DtoRGB when the results are different when used for the same task?"
What I meant is that they are absolutely different kind of applications.
Applying 5DtoRGB is like converting your files in Color at 32b, and doing a Chroma rebuilding.
MPGSTreamclip havent been designed to do this.
BTW, If I would work with H264 stuff, I would try converting in FC on High Precision and with the" Chroma Smooth/Sharpen" from Nattresse. Should look better than from MPGStreamclip.
And, as I sayd before, I think that this workflow is worth depending of your final delivery format.
Cheers,
Rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Joe Orange
Re: 5DtoRGB - why?
on Oct 2, 2010 at 5:47:04 pm

Thanks guys but my concern is not only color shift but lack of shadow detail and the overall feel of the converted footage and whilst of course it would be best viewed and more accurately judged on a video monitor, I'm sure my calibrated 23" Apple Cinema Display is not displaying differences in quality between these conversion methods purely because it is not a video monitor.

thanks again


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Jim Medcraft
Re: 5DtoRGB - why?
on Aug 30, 2012 at 2:45:11 pm

Just to add to this post to bring it up to date for anyone that come across this post this.

The major advantage of using 5DtoRGB now is that you can automatically apply the technicolor cinestyle lut, while transcoding, eliminating another step in your workflow if your shooting in cinestyle.

But I am finding an issue with files its rendering of of 422(HQ) files in that FCP7 gives a warning on import that media is not optimised for Final Cut Pro


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Stephen de Vere
Re: 5DtoRGB - why?
on Oct 10, 2012 at 11:35:40 am

Yes, the ProRes files have some minor quirk that means Cinema Tools (I am on v5.5.1 and FCP7) can't conform them either. I have v1.5.10 (64 bit)

5DtoRGB can do the conform to the frame rate you want but it is still a bit worrying.

Rafael Amador pointed this out in March 2012 on these forums.

---

It would be nice to have another option in the Luminance Range - to match footage from more cameras - eg. XDCAM EX EX3 footage which records super-whites 16-255 range. Using 'Full Range' preserves highlight info but the blacks get lifted which is OK but not ideal.

I believe an update for the FS700 camera files is imminent - which might a good match for EX1/EX3 files too.


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Warren Eig
Re: 5DtoRGB - why?
on Jan 3, 2013 at 7:23:01 pm

It's a great program 5DtoRGB Batch. The only thing I'm not sure about is when you shoot with the Technicolor Cinestyle Lut, are you supposed to post process it "on" in 5DtoRGB or is it supposed to be set to post process "none"? When you set it to Post Process "Cinestyle" everything looks considerably darker. When it is "none" it looks more as shot.

Does anyone know the answer? I read the 2 page manual and it is unclear as is the Rarevision website.

Warren

Warren Eig
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