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Dropped Frames in FCP

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Jason Nedrich
Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 22, 2009 at 9:49:12 pm

After taking the advice on another board to use Uncompressed 10 bit in logging VHS into FCP 4.5 HD, I can't capture due to dropped frames. I even changed back all the settings and it still drops frames. HELP!


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walter biscardi
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 22, 2009 at 10:18:47 pm

Your media array is too slow.

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Alan Okey
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 22, 2009 at 10:24:32 pm

Storage and Data Rates for Uncompressed SD / HD Video

525 NTSC uncompressed:
8 bit @ 720 x 486 @ 29.97fps = 20 MB per/sec, or 70 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 720 x 486 @ 29.97fps = 27 MB per/sec, or 94 GB per/hr.

625 PAL uncompressed:
8 bit @ 720 x 576 @ 25fps = 20 MB per/sec, or 70 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 720 x 576 @ 25fps = 26 MB per/sec, or 93 GB per/hr.

720p HDTV uncompressed:
8 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94fps = 105 MB per/sec, or 370 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94fps = 140 MB per/sec, or 494 GB per/hr.

1080i and 1080p HDTV uncompressed:
8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 95 MB per/sec, or 334 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 127 MB per/sec, or 445 GB per/hr.

8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 99 MB per/sec, or 348 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 132 MB per/sec, or 463 GB per/hr.

8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 119 MB per/sec, or 417 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 158 MB per/sec, or 556 GB per/hr.

1080i and 1080p HDTV RGB (4:4:4) uncompressed:
10 bit @ 1280 x 720p @ 60fps = 211 per/sec, or 742 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24PsF = 190 per/sec, or 667 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 50i = 198 per/sec, or 695 GB per/hr.
10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 60i = 237 per/sec, or 834 GB per/hr.


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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 22, 2009 at 10:35:12 pm

Ok, so how do I prevent the dropped frames? As I said, I changed them back to standard DV/NTSC and still not functioning properly.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 22, 2009 at 10:49:05 pm

[Jason Nedrich] "As I said, I changed them back to standard DV/NTSC and still not functioning properly.
"


What "them" are you referring to? You can't simply change the settings of a timeline once things are already cut into that timeline. You'll need to open a new timeline, change the settings before adding anything to the sequence, then copy and paste from the old timeline or start cutting anew. BTW, if you copy and paste from the old timeline will most likely have to remove the distort attribute from all clips.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 22, 2009 at 10:50:45 pm

I was referring to the audio/video settings. Thanks.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 22, 2009 at 10:54:07 pm

[Jason Nedrich] "I was referring to the audio/video settings. Thanks."

Exactly as I thought...

So, follow what I said above... Once you start cutting clips into a timeline you can't just start making changes to the audio/video settings.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 22, 2009 at 11:10:10 pm

I copied and pasted the footage from the timeline into a new project. Some of my files in the new project were offline. Can I salvage my mistake in the original project?


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walter biscardi
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 22, 2009 at 11:17:13 pm

[Jason Nedrich] "I copied and pasted the footage from the timeline into a new project. Some of my files in the new project were offline. Can I salvage my mistake in the original project?"

If you want to work in DV, you need to capture your footage in DV. Not change your Sequence settings and expect Uncompressed footage to play in that timeline.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 22, 2009 at 11:01:09 pm

Ok, you said remove "distort attributes". What do you mean by that?


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walter biscardi
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 22, 2009 at 11:13:17 pm

[Jason Nedrich] "Ok, you said remove "distort attributes". What do you mean by that?"

Just so we're clear, and David has already alluded to this several times. Did you switch your Easy Setup to DV and THEN capture your footage?

Or did you actually capture 10bit Uncompressed footage and NOW you're trying to edit this in a DV timeline?

The latter won't work.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

Creative Cow Forum Host:
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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 23, 2009 at 12:21:45 am

All my footage sitting on my timeline was captured in DV/NTSC. I was advised to go up to Uncompressed. So I then changed it to Uncompressed for the footage that I'd be capturing from now on. And when I was informed by David that you can't do it with footage already on the timeline, tried to change it back and then capture. Since then I've been having nothing but problems capturing. It finally allowed me to capture the footage after I created a new project and pasted the footage from the timeline in the new project. I thought I was out of the woods, then when I dragged the new clips down and tried to play them, it said there are dropped frames. Still stuck!!!!!


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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 23, 2009 at 9:32:14 pm

Please help.......


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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 24, 2009 at 3:50:44 pm

Bump!


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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 24, 2009 at 3:52:59 pm

David do you have any suggestions? If I changed settings, and then changed them back, shouldn't I be able to resume without issues? I guess I'm thinking perhaps I changed something else and forget to put it back.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 24, 2009 at 6:14:36 pm

[Jason Nedrich] "I guess I'm thinking perhaps I changed something else and forget to put it back."

Jason,

Sorry, I've been away at another facility without email.

The big problem with your situation is that I don't know exactly where you're at or what you've changed now and it seems neither do you.

Where are you in terms of your overall edit of this project and how long is the finished project?

I ask, because I'd like to see you start it properly so you can finish it properly. Once you get started on the wrong foot it becomes might difficult to try to sort things out in mid stream.


David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 24, 2009 at 6:22:08 pm

Thanks for your response. I'm kinda in a pickle because I'm almost finished and the footage used is mailed to me and I mail it back. If I can redo it without recapturing, I'd consider it. Would rather try and salvage current project if I can. Just a thought. Should I create a new project, upload the new footage on it and then transfer it back to the original project? The footage already on the timeline seems to play fine in the original project, just having trouble adding new footage.


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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 24, 2009 at 6:47:34 pm

It just dawned on me, I changed scratch disks to my external hard drive because my space was low. Could that be an issue?


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walter biscardi
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 24, 2009 at 7:02:11 pm

[Jason Nedrich] "It just dawned on me, I changed scratch disks to my external hard drive because my space was low. Could that be an issue?
"


You're using your System Drive to store the media? Big No-No.


Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

Creative Cow Forum Host:
Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital.

Blog!

Twitter!


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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 24, 2009 at 7:08:29 pm

Thanks Walter. So I should always use an external or secondary drive for my capture scratch?


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walter biscardi
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 24, 2009 at 7:14:13 pm

[Jason Nedrich] "Thanks Walter. So I should always use an external or secondary drive for my capture scratch?"

Absolutely positively. That's Rule Number One when working with any non-linear editing system. NEVER use your system drive to store or play back media.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

Creative Cow Forum Host:
Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital.

Blog!

Twitter!


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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 24, 2009 at 7:33:22 pm

Ok I didn't know. I took a FCP editing class in 2003 and all it dealt with was the actual editing the footage already captured. Never knew that. Why is that by the way? Thanks.


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walter biscardi
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 24, 2009 at 7:48:59 pm

[Jason Nedrich] "Ok I didn't know. I took a FCP editing class in 2003 and all it dealt with was the actual editing the footage already captured. Never knew that. Why is that by the way? Thanks."

Because the internal System Drive is running the OS and your Applications. It is not fast enough to do all of this AND play back media in realtime. It may do so for a while, especially if the drive is near empty, but sooner or later, you drop frames.

Always use an media drive or array that is at least twice as fast as you require for the format at hand. This is why we run 8TB and 16TB RAIDs here that run 400 to 700MB/s.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

"Foul Water, Fiery Serpent" now in Post.

Creative Cow Forum Host:
Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital.

Blog!

Twitter!


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 24, 2009 at 8:43:19 pm

[walter biscardi] "Because the internal System Drive is running the OS and your Applications. It is not fast enough to do all of this AND play back media in realtime."

And to add to what Walter said above, if it can't do all that and play back media in realtime, then it most likely will also drop frames during the capture process. If that happens and you are unaware of it, that winds up being a huge issue for which the only fix is often to start all over again capturing and recutting the entire project, pretty much from scratch.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 25, 2009 at 12:31:02 am

I never had dropped frames until now, the new footage. Should I transfer all the capture scratch and render files to my external HD?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 25, 2009 at 1:07:00 am

[Jason Nedrich] "Should I transfer all the capture scratch and render files to my external HD?
"


Do not pass go, do not collect $200, proceed immediately to transfer your capture scratch to your external hard drive. You will have to relink all files afterward unless you use Media Manager to move the files, so you might want to check out using MM in the manual. Many don't use MM and they seem to get along just fine, but some find they have to relink each file individually when they move the files manually. That is a risk only you can decide upon...

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 25, 2009 at 1:27:33 am

Thanks for helping this novice David. I will proceed to transfer tomorrow. I may and will have questions at that point. Thanks again.


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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 26, 2009 at 4:00:39 am

I moved the capture scratch and reconnected the media without any problems. Should I do the same with the render files?


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David Roth Weiss
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 26, 2009 at 6:16:08 am

The render files should also be on the media drive, but you may find that you are unable to relink them. If so, delete them using the render manager and just change the location where the render files are stored in FCP System Preferences, and then re-render.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 27, 2009 at 3:01:56 am

So I should try the same method I used to reconnect the capture scratch first? Copy and paste in the Media Drive, then delete from the Main HD, and try to reconnect? If that doesn't work, then delete using render manager? What is render manager and how do I find it? Thanks for all your help David.

Jason


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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 27, 2009 at 3:35:02 am

I copied from the main HD to the media HD. I haven't deleted yet from the main.

I did try capturing again and the capturing seemed to go smoothly, then I dropped the clip into the timeline and it kept stopping in the middle giving me the dropped frames indicator. I have it on Safe RT and playback quality is medium and capture quality is the highest (as I've always had it).


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Jason Nedrich
Re: Dropped Frames in FCP
on Oct 28, 2009 at 7:15:44 pm

Just a thought. Would I be better off converting the VHS tapes to Mini-DV, as well as outputting video in the timeline to Mini-DV via firewire and then start the new project with proper settings? Would converting via firewire to Mini-DV and then recapture via firewire show a loss of quality?


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