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plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame

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Jason Brown
plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 24, 2009 at 6:00:20 pm

Hey Guys,

Simple edit - incoming clip 45 seconds long...only using 25 seconds. PLENTY of handles on end...like 10 seconds.

Incoming clip, starting with first frame. Add a dissolve to cut and it only has a duration of 1 frame. I can place the incoming clip ABOVE the other layer, trim out, and dissolve down, that works...but a straight dissolve from one to other won't give me the handles on outgoing clip.

It allows me to "roll" trim in the dissolve dialog box into the incoming clip...but I want to start with the beginning.

I have moved on, but I'd like to know why this is happening.

-Jason


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walter biscardi
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 24, 2009 at 6:04:52 pm

[Jason Brown] "Incoming clip, starting with first frame. Add a dissolve to cut and it only has a duration of 1 frame."

You need handles on BOTH clips. So you will require at least 1/2 of handle at the beginning of this clip to make the dissolve.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
Credits include multiple Emmy, Telly, Aurora and Peabody Awards.
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Jason Brown
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 24, 2009 at 7:05:21 pm

Really? No "start at cut" type of dissolve setting? That seems like a problem? I guess usually you should have handles...but what if you don't? Is the workaround to work in a downstream fashion like I did?

-Jason


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Steven Gladstone
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 24, 2009 at 7:09:41 pm

Just a thought, if you want double click on the fade/dissolve, and you can set it to be either a fade in, fade out, or dissolve. Changing from one to the other may do what you want.

The other thing I just discovered by activating the overlay mode, you can actually set node points to fade up or down a clip.

I'm still playing around with this.

Hope this helps.

Steven Gladstone
http://www.gladstonefilms.com


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Jason Brown
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 24, 2009 at 7:35:40 pm

Are you talking about the buttons at the top? That look like this= / /\ \

I thought was the orientation of the dissolve, start/centered/ending at cut? I've had no luck with those as well.

-Jason


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Steven Gladstone
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 24, 2009 at 7:40:05 pm

Yep those buttons.

What the responder was saying about the dissolve is right, there needs to be handles on both clips, otherwise it will just give you on frame, but if you double click the effect to get the dialog, you can slide and extend the dissolve.

I'm using non additive for dissolves, but checking out the nodes.

Steven Gladstone
http://www.gladstonefilms.com


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walter biscardi
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 24, 2009 at 8:29:31 pm

[Jason Brown] "Really? No "start at cut" type of dissolve setting?"

Yes, even on a "Start at Cut" edit, FCP will still want to see handles on the incoming clip. Pretty much all NLE's work this way.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
Credits include multiple Emmy, Telly, Aurora and Peabody Awards.
Owner, Biscardi Creative Media featuring HD Post

Biscardi Creative Media

Creative Cow Forum Host:
Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital.

Read my Blog!

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Thax Clave
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 24, 2009 at 9:42:53 pm

[walter biscardi] "Yes, even on a "Start at Cut" edit, FCP will still want to see handles on the incoming clip. Pretty much all NLE's work this way. "

I'm not exactly sure what Walter is talking about, but it's not about "Start at Cut" edits.
I have been making "Start at Cut" edits for years starting at the very first frame of an INCOMING captured clip on Avid and Final Cut Pro.

As long as the OUTGOING (first) clip has enough handle at the end, the editor (FCP) will begin and complete the dissolve even starting at the very first frame of the INCOMING (second) clip.

I just tried it again right before posting this to make sure.

Conversely, for "End at Cut" edits, even if you are at the last frame of the OUTGOING (first) clip, you can dissolve to another INCOMING (second) clip as long as that second has enough PRECEDING frames (handle) to overlap it back into and before the previous clip ends.



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Jason Brown
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 24, 2009 at 9:59:35 pm

I may be able to shed some light when I get into my work computer...I'm using a keyboard shortcut to add the dissolve and I'm not exactly sure what the key is calling for.

Let me look and I'll post back...

I don't know how to add a dissolve other than the way I setup on my keyboard. I don't know how to add a dissolve (one step) that starts/ends/or is centered on cut.

-Jason


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Jason Brown
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 24, 2009 at 9:55:08 pm

I've only had experience with AVID Media Composer and now Final Cut and AVID absolutely DOESN'T need handles on an incoming clip with a dissolve that starts at cut. There's no need for media...dissolve starts at frame 1 and media starts at frame 1.

-Jason


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David Roth Weiss
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 24, 2009 at 10:28:23 pm

[Jason Brown] "I've only had experience with AVID Media Composer and now Final Cut and AVID absolutely DOESN'T need handles on an incoming clip with a dissolve that starts at cut. There's no need for media...dissolve starts at frame 1 and media starts at frame 1. "

Jason,

Avid did not invent the transition. Transitions and many other aspects of non linear editing were designed to emulate film style editing, and in film style editing, if you don't have the frames on both the outgoing and incoming negative, you'd be hosed when the negative was conformed. So, that's where the procedure originates, and that's why it exists. The fact that Avid decided to abandon the old method, or that FCP decided to keep it, is neither right or wrong for either system, it just is what it is, and you have to learn to adjust.



David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Jason Brown
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 24, 2009 at 10:43:20 pm

wow...

I don't know what to say...great response.

-Jason


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David Roth Weiss
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 24, 2009 at 11:33:57 pm

[Jason Brown] "I don't know what to say...great response. "

Jason,

Those of us who have been around since the days of film have a bit of an advantage at times, because we know how and why things are they way they are, and because in the days of film editing we had to perform many of the same functions manually, with our own hands, that today are merely clicks with a mouse. Like anything else, doing things with your hands can give you a real feel for things that's harder to get through a digital user interface. And, being there at the very beginning, to see the evolution of NLEs from film and from linear editing, was a great way for us film people to learn how these things actually work. It's why we old fogies get to hang around these parts while we wait to be shipped off to the bone farm.

David



David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los Angeles

POST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY ™


A forum host of Creative COW's Apple Final Cut Pro, Business & Marketing, Indie Film & Documentary, and Film History & Appreciations forums.


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Steven Gladstone
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 25, 2009 at 12:46:07 am

:-)

I remember it from college (I'm not quite so old yet), A B Negative cutting, fades and dissolves had to be in multiples of 8 frames (or was it 16 frames?)

Cutting on a flatbed in 16mm, never quite worked with an upright.

Steven Gladstone
http://www.gladstonefilms.com


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Thax Clave
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 25, 2009 at 12:13:42 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "Avid did not invent the transition. Transitions and many other aspects of non linear editing were designed to emulate film style editing, and in film style editing, if you don't have the frames on both the outgoing and incoming negative, you'd be hosed when the negative was conformed. So, that's where the procedure originates, and that's why it exists. The fact that Avid decided to abandon the old method, or that FCP decided to keep it, is neither right or wrong for either system, it just is what it is, and you have to learn to adjust.
"


I don't know what you're saying.

I've been dissolving with only one clip having handles on AVID forever.
Didn't need handles on both clips on a flatbed, either.
You needed at least "leader" to keep the incoming clip threaded, but if the dissolve didn't
start until the exposed frames began ("Starting on Cut") you never saw the leader.

FCP does not require handles on both clips.

The handle only is required to be on one clip or the other.
(It CAN be on both, of course.)

Am I not understanding the discussion?

I'm sitting here making dissolves that begin on the very first captured frame of the incoming video.
No problem at all. There is no handle overlap on the incoming clip. None.

Here's how I'm doing this:

1- Open the Effects Tab in the Browser.
2- Find the Cross Dissolve effect (audio or video) that you want to use.
3- Change the length (in the Length Column.)
4- Drop that effect onto the edit point.

You can drop the effect just before the cut, "on" the cut, or just after the cut-

Before the cut: "End at Cut" Dissolve
On the cut: "Centered on Cut" Dissolve
After the cut: "Start at Cut" Dissolve

If there is no handle on one of the clips, you just need to drop the dissolve on the side of the
cut where there is no handle.
Then, FCP will use only the OTHER clip's frames to create the dissolve.





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walter biscardi
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 25, 2009 at 12:51:05 pm

[Thax Clave] "If there is no handle on one of the clips, you just need to drop the dissolve on the side of the
cut where there is no handle.
Then, FCP will use only the OTHER clip's frames to create the dissolve. "


So what happens when you right click between the two clips and add the dissolve, which the way I add most of my dissolves here since it's faster.



Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
Credits include multiple Emmy, Telly, Aurora and Peabody Awards.
Owner, Biscardi Creative Media featuring HD Post

Biscardi Creative Media

Creative Cow Forum Host:
Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital.

Read my Blog!

Twitter!


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Thax Clave
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 25, 2009 at 1:19:06 pm

[walter biscardi] "So what happens when you right click between the two clips and add the dissolve, which the way I add most of my dissolves here since it's faster.
"


Don't do it that way if you want to edit to a clip that has no handles.

What can I tell you?

The reason I persisted is that several very seasoned editors were saying that FCP and AVID simply wouldn't DO those kind of dissolves.

I've been doing them ever since I first touched an AVID (version 4.)



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Jason Brown
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 25, 2009 at 1:39:33 pm

Yea...good point, my thought was that exactly. If I have a clip that media starts @ cut...then I'll go through the effect tab, otherwise I can set a default transition then adjust since there are handles.

Thanks for clearing that up Thax!

-Jason


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Jason Brown
Re: plenty of handle on outgoing clip...but dissolve is locked to one frame
on Sep 25, 2009 at 12:58:56 pm

Thax!

I was worried, because YES it is editing 101.

You've solved my problem...my workflow is to add a dissolve using a keyboard shortcut - the "\" key. That seems to be where the problem lies.

The way it used to work for me was that AVID prompts you when you add a transition on whether you want start,end,or center on cut.

In FCP, my default transition is CENTERED on cut...so when I add that it only lasts 1 frame and starts at cut. I don't have any ability to access handles for some reason.

If I do your suggestion, -> It works fine.

[Thax Clave] "1- Open the Effects Tab in the Browser.
2- Find the Cross Dissolve effect (audio or video) that you want to use.
3- Change the length (in the Length Column.)
4- Drop that effect onto the edit point. "


So now - new question. Can I setup a keyboard shortcut for dissolve start/end/and centered? Is the typical workflow to setup a dissolve in the viewer and then drag it down? Seems like a lot of work for a simple dissolve. I also hate using the mouse, I'd rather add a transition simply by pressing a key, not dragging across my dual 24" monitors! :)

-Jason


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