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The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns

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Michael Fraticelli
The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 4, 2015 at 2:24:11 am

Hi Gang

I've read almost every post about the chronic problem of 'Disappearing Wave Forms.' In this particular case, I've basically rebuilt a Mac Pro with fresh installs of 10.6.8 and FC7. CS5 software is working fine without any problems. I've trashed Prefs and Wave Form Cache with only sketchy improvements. The symptoms are 'classic' and equivalent to what most other folks have dealt with. I've tried scrubbing the playhead moving it back and forth, enlarged the timeline; you name it, I've tried it. The problem seems to be related to FC7 not recognizing/allowing wave forms from years of FC6 projects. When reverting back to the older system, (with FC6), and connecting to the same external drives, there's never a problem. In fact even with the wave forms cache deleted, FC6 projects are still able to reproduce/reconstruct/allow every wave form to appear. FC7 just doesn't want to play ball.

A little more detail back to FC7: some wave forms appear while most do not. But all the audio plays fine. Sometimes blank wave forms except those (pesky X's), will open in the audio browser producing wave forms there, while others do not. I've resorted to going back
to FC6 in the older system in order to finish the project.


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Michael Fraticelli
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 4, 2015 at 6:34:29 am
Last Edited By Michael Fraticelli on Nov 4, 2015 at 6:02:59 pm

Hi Guys

I know this topic has been hashed over many times. I forgot to ask if anyone could kindly offer any 'other' ideas/work arounds that haven't been addressed before? It just seems such a waste to have gone thru the trouble setting up another newer machine using all precautions and organizing the data.

One Idea:
Would there be any benefit using 'Media Manager' to help FC7 create/allow the missing wave forms? Perhaps use Media Manager in the older system with FC6, then transfer that data to the Mac Pro for FC7? I honestly don't know what else to do to get FC7 in the new machine to allow/recognize/create wave forms. All the other file paths, media and plugins have connected/shown up with no problems. There seems to be a common denominator when one tries to open FC6 files from another different newer system no matter how well organized the folders/media/data may be.

Another Idea:
Would there be any benefit taking out all the drives from the esata enclosures and putting them directly in the remaining HD slots in the Mac Pro?

Thanx for any help you might provide - please refer to my first post above with regard to this issue.

Thanx again
Mike


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Roger Poole
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 4, 2015 at 4:02:33 pm

Mike, I'm a great fan of FCP6. I have 6 - 7 and X on my Mac Pro, each on it's own boot volume. FCP6 runs sweet and never lets me down. However, there do seem to be some issues with FCP7. As both apps are 32bit they are severely limited regarding RAM. They can only access 4gigs of ram in theory, but 2.5gigs in practice. FCP6 seems fine with that, I have Boris and all the FX Factory plug ins installed, not a problem.
I get the feeling that when they wrote FCP7 they put just that bit too much into it and as a result makes it unstable due to running into the RAM buffers and causing "out of memory" errors. That's just my theory though.

Moving your ESATA externals to internal is unlikely to show an improvement. You are editing SD which has a very low data rate. You could download Blackmagic speed test or AJA system test to check what speeds you are getting from your drives. What ESATA card do you have and are you running the appropriate drivers. I use the Highpoint Rocket Raid and G-Raid externals, no problem.

If you have FCP6 why not install that. You will need to install Rosetta though. This is on your Snow Leopard installer disk. I can assure you that it runs great on a Mac Pro running 10.6.8 and hopefully you will get your waveforms back.


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Michael Fraticelli
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 4, 2015 at 4:48:13 pm
Last Edited By Michael Fraticelli on Nov 4, 2015 at 6:10:32 pm

Hi Roger - Yes I have the proper drivers for the esata cards which I picked up from OWC. 'Newer Tech' The cards seem to be working fine. They're nice n peppy while using 'Super Duper', the data rate is faster than the esata cards in my older G5 machine. And BTW, I access #4 external drives 'straight up', Non-Raid.

Thanx for all your ideas and I really appreciate your expertise. I wasn't aware of those problems with FC7 and the RAM issue. Let me just reclarify: I have several systems in different machines and when I conduct these tests, I toggle back n forth between a Power Mac G5 with FC6 and the Mac Pro with FC7 (I just set up).

So as I understand it, you're pretty much saying there's not much I can do about the missing wave forms in FC7 in the Mac Pro when it tries to read those files created in FC6? Its an inherrent weakness in FC7 RAM - Yes? What if I installed more RAM in the Mac Pro? I currently only have 6 GB's of Ram in the Mac Pro and 14GB's in the G5. Would increasing RAM in the Mac Pro help?

(OR)

How bout using Media Manager from either FC6, (where the files originated), or thru the Mac Pro using FC7? Would that help? I know its going to create more and more files, but maybe FC7 would recognize more of the wave forms that way?

If all else fails, I suppose I can still count on the Mac Pro and FC7 for future HD projects - Yes?

Thank you Roger


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Roger Poole
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 4, 2015 at 6:30:15 pm

The RAM issues apply to both FCP6 and 7 because they are 32bit applications and even though they might now be running in a 64bit environment they can only address a theoretical 4gigs of ram regardless of how much more is physically present in the computer. However, due to the faster speed of the Mac Pro you will see a huge difference compared to running on your G5. Like I said before, FCP6 seems to cope well with that RAM limitation but FCP7 is prone to out of memory errors. They put various new features into FCP7 such as labels, search and variable speed, etc, so maybe they are responsible for the out of memory issue. But if you can live without those features you wont see a great deal of difference between 6 and 7. As to the future well, FCP7 was discontinued 5 years ago so is definitely becoming a bit of an old horse, but lots of us like the workflow even though FCP7 is living on borrowed time. The main problem being that newer computers can't run the older operating system which is needed to run the Final Cut Studio suite dependably - or at all.


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Michael Fraticelli
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 4, 2015 at 7:10:39 pm
Last Edited By Michael Fraticelli on Nov 4, 2015 at 7:43:17 pm

Hi Again Roger - Since I'm still mainly working on a Standard Def. project started years ago, I just wish I had known about this issue before I formatted into only one volume on the 2006 Mac Pro. You surely opened my eyes!

One Approach:
You've seen faster render times and better overall performance with FC6 when installed on an earlier Mac Pro? Yes? If so, since I already went ahead and installed FC7 and other software into only ONE partition, I'll have to go back wipe the system drive this time creating two partitions. You mentioned Rosetta, (being on the 10.6.4 Apple Install Disc)? I would only need that for FC6 correct? *Note, I later installed the Combo update to 10.6.8. If this is what's required, I've got my work cut out: Two Partitions with FC7 on one and FC6 on the other. In summation; it would seem the only advantage in having FC7, is for creating NEW projects probably in HD - Yes?

Another approach:
Perhaps I can just install another system drive in the Mac Pro and put FC6 here?

Thanx Roger you're being very helpful!


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Roger Poole
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 4, 2015 at 7:33:13 pm

Hi Mike, I would suggest you buy another hard disk and install it alongside your present disk. Install Snow Leopard and FCP6 and see how it goes. That way you can choose which disk you want to boot from and later make the final decision on which version you would like to work on in future projects. FCP6 requires Rosetta because it's not fully coco. It's quite a while since I did an FCP6 install but as I recall Rosetta is in "optional installers" on the Snow Leopard installer DVD. You seem to have put a lot of work into your new system. I little more and it will be a great improvement over the G5.


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Michael Fraticelli
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 4, 2015 at 7:52:41 pm

Hi again Roger - thank you for staying with me on this. Ok, as I understand it, insert another drive in the Mac Pro and format for another system drive with Snow Leopard. You mentioned Rosetta is an offered component on the disc and I guess I'll see an option for it? Then install the Combo update for 10.6.8. If all goes well with that, install FC6.

BTW, I've read that only QT 7 should be installed, (as the later version X will cause conflicts with FC6).

Mike


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Roger Poole
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 4, 2015 at 8:08:47 pm

Yes, Quicktime 7.6.4. It's on the Snow Leopard installer disk. Any problems, we're here.


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Michael Fraticelli
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 4, 2015 at 8:21:24 pm

Thanx again Roger!

Will be back sometime later ....

Best
Mike


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Roger Poole
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 5, 2015 at 8:56:12 pm

Hi Mike, things are getting confused as you have two live threads running. I see in the other thread that you have successfully installed FCP6 on the new disk, well done. The main issue relating to this thread, do you have your audio waveforms back?


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Michael Fraticelli
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 5, 2015 at 9:12:09 pm

Hi again Roger :)

You guys really stay ontop of things here :) Sorry for the confusion, yes I'll get back to the issue of text in a few days. Very helpful folks here! I tried to focus primarily on our discussion regarding Dual System HD's: Its going well - almost finished. However I do have a question: I usually keep 'Apple Software Updates' saved to separate folders. Concerning FC6, (for some reason), I installed Apple ProApplicationsUpdate2008-05 when in fact there's four other ones before it:

ProApplicationsUpdate2008-01
ProApplicationsUpdate2008-02
ProApplicationsUpdate2008-03
ProApplicationsUpdate2008-04

Should I install these others, or ignor them?

Thanx again Roger
Mike


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Roger Poole
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 5, 2015 at 9:37:38 pm
Last Edited By Roger Poole on Nov 6, 2015 at 10:25:03 am

Hi Mike, if you are now running FCP 6.0.6 you'll be right. Christopher seems to have come up with an answer to the waveforms problem. Get to work and give FCP a thrashing. See how it works out for you.

How did we get things done before the internet. :o)


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Christopher McDonell
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 5, 2015 at 9:22:06 pm

Oh my goodness, all this because you have missing wave forms? Is that really a widespread issue with FCP 7? Might want to hear from more than just one user.

For what it's worth, I ran into this problem as well... on FCP 6. The fix was to break the media links then reconnect. So I copied my media files to another folder, reconnected, and presto... The waveforms redrew themselves right before my eyes. Have you tried doing that?


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Roger Poole
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 5, 2015 at 9:29:47 pm

Well..You learn something every day! Nice catch Christopher.


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Michael Fraticelli
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 5, 2015 at 9:44:21 pm
Last Edited By Michael Fraticelli on Nov 6, 2015 at 12:21:08 am

Chris, Roger

Chris mentioned: The fix was to break the media links then reconnect. So I copied my media files to another folder then reconnected

As suggested I added a 2nd system drive containing fresh installs of OS and FC6 (within Rosetta), but the problem of missing wave forms continues. FC6 in its original state/machine (being an older G5), connects and reconstructs wave forms with no problems at all. But when a fresh install of FC6 is introduced, (from another system drive), it has the same problem that FC7 was having. No consistent connections to wave forms.

Problem here is that I have multiple drives of external 'Scratch Media'. The ONLY media in the Mac Pro, (FC7), that can't be connected/created are 'Wave Forms'.

I fear if I start creating new folders for all that Media from multiple drives, I'll be creating Frankenstein, (a little late for Halloween).

I think I've patiently tried to keep the horse alive, but he died just the same. It would seem, the only recourse is go back to the G5 and finish the project there, (I also have back up G5's), and keep the Mac Pro Desktop for future HD projects. Yes its a wastefull shame not being able to take advantage of a perfectly fine Mac Pro Desktop, but I think I should quit while ahead.

Mike


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Christopher McDonell
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 6, 2015 at 2:00:08 am

Hmm. Well just to clarify, I had the issue w FCP 6 and resolved it and now have waveforms and have been editing happily ever since, using just about every OS from SL onward; most recently Mavericks and now El Capitan. There's plenty of others editing w vs 7 who have also not reported an ongoing issue with missing wave forms. I'm sorry for your troubles!

in case you're interested, I'll further elaborate. I broke the connection to some of my media files by simply moving them to another folder, then witnessing the lost connections and saving my project file. I quit FCP, deleted my waveform folder and relaunched. I was prompted to reconnect my missing files which I did. When finished, I double clicked on the files, switched to audio in the canvas and literally watched FCP redraw the waveforms right in front of me.

You could test this method with a few files, and if it works, just rename your main folder, or folders. Easy.

Good luck!


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Roger Poole
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 6, 2015 at 2:50:24 am

I completely agree with Michael's caution. Given the situation I wouldn't mess around with the media drives because of the risk of causing problems with the fallback position of continuing the edit on the G5. I was in a similar situation a couple of years ago when asked to finish a project created by another editor who was working on a G5. I received all the raw media files, the project files and nothing else. Of course the whole project had to be recreated from scratch on a "New name" media drive, but it all worked out fine. Mike's situation is different because he has the identical media drives which he had on the G5, so its a straight re-link, which might be where the problem is.


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Michael Fraticelli
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 6, 2015 at 3:06:21 am
Last Edited By Michael Fraticelli on Nov 6, 2015 at 3:17:58 am

Hi again Chris - thank you very much for staying with me on this. I've done double duty installing FC6 thru Rosetta on another system drive. It looked feasible and was looking for an easier solution. But since it didn't work, I've tested/tried deleting only a few wave forms at a time from corresponding wave cache folders. In those cases it worked. They were recognized/re-created upon re-opening a project. But when I tried to delete all the wave forms (perhaps 50-75) from a particular project, FC7 produced sketchy results and failed re-create/reconstruct all of them.

In your approach did you move only 'wave forms' to another/different folder, or did you move/relocate 'Capture Scratch' and other media? As I mentioned this project requires multiple Scratch Drives, 3 or more. I'm very cautious about changing the folder directory. Perhaps you could explain that?

I can look for specific media, (wave forms), and make changes in small increments by deleting a few at time. But its difficult figuring out the nomenclature assigned to each wave/piece of sound:

http://www.northafrica1942-43.com/Scratch-1.jpg

http://www.northafrica1942-43.com/Scratch-2.jpg

http://www.northafrica1942-43.com/Scratch-3.jpg

Thanx Chris


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Christopher McDonell
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 6, 2015 at 6:42:17 am
Last Edited By Christopher McDonell on Nov 6, 2015 at 6:46:14 am

Hi Michael,

I deleted the Waveform Cache files outright, straight to trash, then moved and reconnected (or just change the folder name, so FCP thinks you're moving them) the Capture Scratch media files – the .mov files. It was important, in my case, to break connection with the .mov files, then reconnect, at which point waveforms were recreated and everything worked just fine.

I should add that the waveform cache or thumbnail cache files are not a big deal. You can delete them anytime and they'll just recreate themselves when you relaunch FCP.


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Michael Fraticelli
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 6, 2015 at 12:22:03 pm

I should add that the waveform cache or thumbnail cache files are not a big deal. You can delete them anytime and they'll just recreate themselves when you relaunch FCP.

As I mentioned, I've tried that and FC7 will not recreate them. It only creates partial pieces. However FC6 in the other machine has no problem reproducing them.

I had asked if there was a way to identify the waveform titles so you knew which ones represented which sound pieces that the .mov files were tied to? Please remember we're dealing with multiple scratch drives. And BTW, they've all been backed up. Ironically it would appear, (at this point), backing them up may be irrelevant.


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Michael Fraticelli
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 6, 2015 at 2:03:15 pm

I'd like to thank Chris and Roger for all their help.

Best thing to do here is close this thread as its taking time away from others.

Until Next Time :)

My Best to All!
Mike


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Roger Poole
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 6, 2015 at 2:08:04 pm

Mike, before you go. Looking at picture 3 it looks like the stereo clips are ok but the mono clips are where the problem is. Basic I know, but have you tried highlighting one of the problem clips in the timeline and choosing "reconnect media" from there.


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Michael Fraticelli
Re: The Disappearing Wave Form Nightmare Returns
on Nov 6, 2015 at 5:39:55 pm
Last Edited By Michael Fraticelli on Nov 6, 2015 at 5:45:56 pm

Hi there Roger - yes thank you my good friend - everything but the kitchen sink ....

I have to say in all sincere honesty; you guys have the patience and respect of 'Jobe' - unlike some other forums I know ....

Bye for now guys - but like Arnold sez: "I'll be back" :)


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