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capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage

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Keith Eyrich
capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 8, 2015 at 3:33:35 am

So- I'm trying to find the best settings to log/capture 24p footage into FCP6. No, I'm not a time traveler from 2007, thanks. I like my old FCP6 just fine but despite it's age I can't find a solid answer about this. I've tried a couple capture presets I thought would work but the footage just doesn't look "right"- the background is kinda jittery and the people look oddly pixelated. The footage I'm trying to capture is from 2009 and I honestly can't remember what kind of DV video camera was used. The reason I'm obsessing over getting this to look as good as possible is because the footage is of a dear friend who recently passed away and I'd like to edit something together for my other friends to have of her. No, not some gauche best-of clip reel, just something sweet that most importantly looks as nice as possible. So to recap, how can I definitively get 24p DV footage to look as amazing as possible? Thanks!


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Dave LaRonde
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 9, 2015 at 4:40:24 pm

That could be tough to do. How are you currently capturing the video? Using a camera to capture? A deck? The capture presets already tried? Details, please.

And you may want to wrack your memory to recall how this video was shot: 24p, 24PA, and whether these tapes have continuous time code.

I have a feeling you'll end up doing a log & capture of individual shots to make life easier on yourself.

And DV is DV. It's tough to polish a turd.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Keith Eyrich
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 9, 2015 at 8:47:36 pm

Thanks! Here are your questions and my details-

That could be tough to do. How are you currently capturing the video? Using a camera to capture? A deck? The capture presets already tried? Details, please.

- I'm capturing the video through a little Panasonic PVGS500 via firewire to an ext. hard drive which is connected via firewire 800 to a Macbook Pro. So it's camera-external hard drive-computer. I tried capturing with the settings on DV NTSC, DV NTSC with the just the frame rate changed to 24p, and then DV NTSC with the "pull down removal"

And you may want to wrack your memory to recall how this video was shot: 24p, 24PA, and whether these tapes have continuous time code.

- It was definitely shot on a Panasonic DVX, most likely it's 24p, no idea about the timecode.

I have a feeling you'll end up doing a log & capture of individual shots to make life easier on yourself.

-Well most of what I want to capture is longer segments, like multiple takes, outtakes etc. It's not that much, not like hours, so batch capturing is fine.

And DV is DV. It's tough to polish a turd.

-It's just needs to be free of any major glitches.

Thanks again!


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Dave LaRonde
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 10, 2015 at 6:03:18 pm
Last Edited By Dave LaRonde on Mar 10, 2015 at 9:38:26 pm

[Keith Eyrich]: "Well most of what I want to capture is longer segments, like multiple takes, outtakes etc. It's not that much, not like hours, so batch capturing is fine."

Maybe yes, maybe no. Probably no.
Above everything else, a DV tape transport is a machine with moving parts that can get out of adjustment.

Did the camera reliably start and stop each & every time you hit the record button, laying down perfect time code and a perfect pulldown cadence? You don't know.

Did the shooter remove the cassette from the camera and reinsert it for some reason? Was the camera able to perfectly find the proper time code and pulldown cadence again? You don't know.

Was the battery replaced during the shoot, which could mess up the time code and pulldown cadence? You don't know.

Has the tape transport you're using for Log & Capture been checked out to make sure it's performing as billed? I kinda doubt it.

Which is why I recommend using Log & Capture, logging individual shots only, and marking in points after the shot starts, and out points before the shot ends.

Then you'll have a collection of clips from which you can remove the pulldown, use to edit in a 23.976 (aka 23.98) edit timeline, and avoid the cadence issues from improper pulldown removal.

Sure, it's a Right Royal Pain to do this, but it's the only technique that guarantees proper 23.976 clips from 29.97 footage.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Keith Eyrich
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 10, 2015 at 9:02:19 pm

So in terms of logging "individual shots", by shots you mean segments on the tape separated by the starting and stopping of recording, correct? So if I have for instance, a five minute clip of an actor doing multiple takes, the same pulldown removal can be applied to that whole segment as long as the camera didn't stop and start recording again, yeah?

I agree that this makes more sense, as the camera used was a rental, so who knows what settings might have been fiddled with when we weren't using it and which we then missed re-adjusting when it came back into our possession.

Now how do I go about properly removing pulldown from these individual shots? Also do I need to set in and out points? All the shots/clips have generous amounts of stuff (highly technical term) at both the beginning and end of when recording started/stopped, so if the timecode is a wreck (it most likely is) wouldn't it be just as easy to do the old press PLAY and then click CAPTURE NOW/ESC at the beginning and end of the clips I want?

Thanks!


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Dave LaRonde
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 10, 2015 at 9:43:31 pm

Yup, that's what I mean -- a single shot begins when the camera starts rolling, and ends when it stops.

Jeez, I'm at a loss on how to remove the pulldown. I always shot 24PA, which is a special pulldown cadence that lets FCP remove the cadence as the shot is being captured. My clips came into FCP at 23.976. I never had to deal with garden-variety 24p.

I hope someone else remembers. I sure don't.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Keith Eyrich
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 11, 2015 at 1:14:13 am

The footage in question could very well be 24PA! I just don't remember. Could I, in theory, try to recapture some clips at optimal 24PA settings, whatever they would be, and see if that helps?


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Mark Suszko
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 9, 2015 at 6:44:35 pm
Last Edited By Mark Suszko on Mar 9, 2015 at 6:45:19 pm

"Kinda jittery" sounds like reversed field order. You might check your pre-sets and sequence settings to see if that's set wrong.

Also, see if "pull-down" was applied or not.


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Keith Eyrich
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 9, 2015 at 7:45:51 pm

Ah, thanks- What would the "wrong" settings be, i.e., jittery=field order is reversed or field order needs to be reversed to get rid of the jitters? And these would be capture presets, correct? Also how do I make sure the "pull-down" was applied? Thanks again!


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Mark Suszko
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 9, 2015 at 9:52:02 pm

I'm working in 7 here, not sure if 6 was the same but first open up your sequence; click on the picon in your bin labeled "Sequence", then go to the top menu and pull down the menu for Sequence> Settings. Tell us what all the info there says. Now, drop a clip into the timeline, highlight it and right-click to reveal "item properties". We need all that info.

If you're familiar with using the free Grab tool in Apple's utilities, take snapshots of these screen readouts, then use the COW image posting controls at the top of your comment box to post those screen captures. Maybe something obvious will stand out when we see it.


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Keith Eyrich
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 10, 2015 at 5:59:35 pm

Here are the screenshots of my presets, as well as one of the footage in question. I just opened it with Quicktime and shift/command/4'ed, I didn't export as image from sequence because I thought that might not be as accurate. I think you can see what I mean- the door frame in the lower right hand corner of the frame is doing the squiggle vision thing really bad, as is the box she's holding, and there's generally just an unusual amount of pixellation over their faces too.





















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Dave LaRonde
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 10, 2015 at 10:51:20 pm
Last Edited By Dave LaRonde on Mar 10, 2015 at 11:06:48 pm

I see the frame rate in the sequence settings is 29.97... even though the edit time base is the erroneously-named 23.98. If you used the good ol' "Match the sequence settings to the first clip" trick, that's the frame rate of the footage, and you'll want to remove the pulldown.
Sadly, I don't remember how.

Those jaggies in the shot come more from the area of high-contrast; you'll notice in the REFLECTION, which is much lower contrast, it isn't nearly as blatant.

And if the subjects are moving some, the pixelation could be caused by pulldown... but you'd probably see lines in areas of motion. It's probably noise in the shot, or DV just being DV.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Mark Suszko
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 10, 2015 at 11:48:18 pm

Dave noticed the same thing I did. Do you have Cinema Tools? Would you try bringing that shot into Cinema Tools and seeing if you can eliminate the 3:2 pulldown? There should be a button for it or something there. If you don't have Cinema tools (it used to come free with the suite), you could try using Apple Compressor to transcode and remove pulldown.


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Keith Eyrich
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 11, 2015 at 1:21:59 am

I do have Cinema Tools, I'll try that. So you think it's something I should worry about fixing once I have the clips captured? Or should I recapture with specific settings before trying to fix the problem in Cinema Tools/Compressor?


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Keith Eyrich
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 11, 2015 at 1:19:18 am

They are indeed moving around and that's where the worst of the jagged edge stuff is happening, even in the less contrasty part of the frame. I know some of what I'm describing is indeed just DV noise and grain but there's something else going on as well that's more "abnormal" looking.


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Mark Suszko
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 11, 2015 at 5:00:42 am

I am as in the dark as you are. Tr fixing a sample section of what you've already captured, using compressor or cinema tools, and let's see. Cinema Tools was made for just this kind of thing, if I recall correctly.


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Keith Eyrich
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 12, 2015 at 1:16:10 am

So I opened a clip in Cinema Tools- clicked reverse telecine, and I "think" it looks better! And it saves it as a new file (.mov.rev) Now that new clip should be ready to be edited in Final Cut now, yeah? I'm just wondering what settings I should use in the reverse telecine pop-up menu (see attached screenshots) and also what capture settings I should use in FCP for optimal quality before running the clips through Cinema Tools to remove the jaggedy-ness. Thanks!





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Mark Suszko
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 12, 2015 at 3:54:41 am

FCP 7 is most "comfortable" working in ProRes. I tend to use ProRes422 for most things in it.

So, let us know if it's "solved" after you've tried a sample of the new footage.


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Keith Eyrich
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 13, 2015 at 8:26:13 pm

So for capturing I should use either of the 422 presets? Do I need to edit the presets at all to match the "24p" footage?



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Dave LaRonde
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 12, 2015 at 6:23:26 pm
Last Edited By Dave LaRonde on Mar 12, 2015 at 6:27:25 pm

I doubt the pulldown cadence for all your clips begins at the same point, so I'd go for the automated option.

And change that frame rate! It is NOT 24, it's 23.976. Or maybe because it's an Apple product, they call 23.976 by its nickname, 23.98.

But it ain't 24.

And yeah, use the clips with the .rev extension appended.

And since we're talkin' FCP, cut it in a 23.98 timeline.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Keith Eyrich
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 13, 2015 at 8:29:18 pm

Will change to 23.98, and edit in 23.98 timeline! What should the frame rate be in my presets when I capture the rest of my footage?


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Dave LaRonde
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 17, 2015 at 11:03:56 pm

What "rest of your footage"? Is it normal interlaced 29.97 DV?

You can't mix frame rates in an FCP timeline. The results look God-awful. So: one timeline (23.976 / 23.98) for the 24p stuff, and one 29.97 timeline for the 29.97 stuff.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Keith Eyrich
Re: capture old, OLLLLDDDDD 24p footage
on Mar 20, 2015 at 4:52:52 pm

The rest of the footage is the same, 24p of unknown variety. So do I need to set my capture preset to 23.98? Right now I'm just capturing at 29.97.


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