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Using Sony 60p footage in an FCP 7 23.98 timeline

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Robert Withers
Using Sony 60p footage in an FCP 7 23.98 timeline
on Dec 29, 2014 at 4:17:58 am

Hi all,
With the Sony RX10 Camera in my hands for one day, and truly ignorant of this camera and workflow options, I shot footage for a producer at 60p. This is a Sony AVCHD format.

My producer is editing in FCP 7 in a 23.98 timeline.

I used Clipwrap to convert the footage to ProRes two ways: 1. Directly, so it created ProRes files with 60fps clips; 2. Converting to 23.98 fps.

When I bring footage into FCP 7 this happens:
1. I set a timeline for 23.98 fps and try to import the 60 fps footage. The popup message says the footage doesn't match, do I want to change the sequence to match the footage. If I say yes, it changes the sequence settings to 60 fps. The footage looks smooth.
If I say no, the footage still imports, but I imagine I see a slight shudder in the image compared to playing the footage in the preview. Is this my imagination or is some transcoding happening that effects the image?

2. I set a timeline for 23.98 fps and import the 23.98 conversion from Clipwrap. It plays in slowmo.

My questions:
Am I really seeing slight image shudder in FCP 7 with this process? Or is it my imagination?
Is there a different/better way to use Clipwrap or is there a better workflow?
Did I just screw up and do we need to switch to using the 24p option in the Sony RX10 for future shooting?

Thanks for any thoughts,
Best regards to the forum.
Robert

Robert Withers

Independent/personal/avant-garde cinema, New York City


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Shane Ross
Re: Using Sony 60p footage in an FCP 7 23.98 timeline
on Dec 29, 2014 at 11:10:14 pm

[Robert Withers] "If I say yes, it changes the sequence settings to 60 fps. The footage looks smooth."

Correct...that means that your sequence is now 60fps.

[Robert Withers] "If I say no, the footage still imports, but I imagine I see a slight shudder in the image compared to playing the footage in the preview. Is this my imagination or is some transcoding happening that effects the image?"

Yes, there will be a slight judder. You are removing lots of frames to make that 60fps footage then play at 24fps. It won't look as smooth, but it should look just fine...match the other 23.98 footage. 60p converts to 24p better than 29.97 does.

[Robert Withers] "2. I set a timeline for 23.98 fps and import the 23.98 conversion from Clipwrap. It plays in slowmo."

Yeah...don't do that. Unless you want the footage to be slow motion.

[Robert Withers] "Am I really seeing slight image shudder in FCP 7 with this process? Or is it my imagination?"

You are...because less frames are playing back. That's normal. It won't play back smooth as it would at 60fps. But it will play back like 24p footage will...same look.

[Robert Withers] "Is there a different/better way to use Clipwrap or is there a better workflow?"

Well, you can try to remove the frames in Compressor, but I don't think it'll look any different. I've always just mixed 60p in my 24p when it came up...because it looks the same.

[Robert Withers] "Did I just screw up and do we need to switch to using the 24p option in the Sony RX10 for future shooting?"

Well, you did screw up a little. But if you want to have 24p footage and a 24p sequence...shoot 24p.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Robert Withers
Re: Using Sony 60p footage in an FCP 7 23.98 timeline
on Dec 30, 2014 at 3:45:02 pm

Thank you, Shane. I was hoping you'd check in on this. That's very helpful and clear about the flow and we'll definitely shoot 24p in the future for a 24p timeline.

Now since we bought the camera, Sony has updated the firmware and added an XAVC-S codec, which does shoot 24p. However, we have now have acquired some footage shot in XAVC-S 60p. Clipwrap doesn't handle this codec but the other divergentmedia software, EditReady, apparently will handle it and convert to ProRes. Onward.

Thanks again.

Robert Withers

Independent/personal/avant-garde cinema, New York City


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Using Sony 60p footage in an FCP 7 23.98 timeline
on Dec 30, 2014 at 6:36:30 pm

To handle the errant 59.94 (aka 60P) clips, Adobe After Effects is your friend:
  • Import the 60P clip into AE.
  • Make a 23.976fps comp.
  • Add the 60P clip to the comp.
  • Render in the codec of your choice -- ProRes 422 is ALWAYS a good choice.

In this particular instance of frame rates -- 59.94 & 23.976 -- AE does a perfect 3:2 pulldown.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Robert Withers
Re: Using Sony 60p footage in an FCP 7 23.98 timeline
on Dec 31, 2014 at 1:34:14 am

Thanks, Dave. I'll try that too. AE and Pr are so mysterious. How do you learn what's going on under the hood, like "a perfect 3:2 pulldown." I always thought a 3:2 pulldown (different from a 2:3 pulldown?) was a way to interpret 24 fps film footage into a 29.97 interlaced video timeline by repeating one film frame as three fields, then the next film frame as two fields.
And I'm dealing with 60p to 24p. But I'll try anything.

Robert Withers

Independent/personal/avant-garde cinema, New York City


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John Heagy
Re: Using Sony 60p footage in an FCP 7 23.98 timeline
on Dec 31, 2014 at 5:11:37 pm

If you want the 60fps footage to play at 60fps yet still have the 24p look correct than your only real option is to edit in 60i. This would require that you convert your 24p to 60i by adding 3:2 and converting your 60p to 60i.

John


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Using Sony 60p footage in an FCP 7 23.98 timeline
on Jan 2, 2015 at 5:22:52 pm

When you place 24p (23.976) footage in a 60p (59.94) AE comp and step through the comp frame-by-frame, you see the following:

Frame 0: Frame 0 (of 23.976 footage)
Frame 1: Frame 0
Frame 2: Frame 0
Frame 3: Frame 1 (of 23.976 footage)
Frame 4: Frame 1
Frame 5: Frame 2 (of 23.976 footage)
Frame 6: Frame 2
Frame 7: Frame 2
Frame 8: Frame 3 (of 23.976 footage)
Frame 9: Frame 3

See the pattern? 3-2-3-2. 3:2 pulldown! Actually it's a bit easier to understand when dealing with 59.94 rather than interlaced 29.97 because you're dealing with 59.94 frames instead of 59.94 fields.

Now, if you do this and you happen to see a 2-3-2-3 pattern, don't freak. Things will be fine.

Now, bear in mind this trick works ONLY with 23.976 footage in a 59.94 comp*.



* It would also work with 24fps footage in a 60 fps comp, but so few people work at those frame rates that it's almost irrelevant.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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John Heagy
Re: Using Sony 60p footage in an FCP 7 23.98 timeline
on Jan 2, 2015 at 8:23:51 pm

If one does a 23.976 to 59.94i conversion via 3:2 then there is no pulldown done. 3:2 and pulldown both occur when converting from 24 to 59.94i which requires a very slight slowdown be done first. 24 with just 3:2 would be 60i

People commonly refer to 3:2 as 3:2 pulldown but pulldown is rarely done with the exception of feature films which are commonly shot at 24 thorough more are 23.976 as film is phased out.


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Robert Withers
Re: Using Sony 60p footage in an FCP 7 23.98 timeline
on Jan 4, 2015 at 7:08:37 pm

Thanks Dave and John, that was my understanding of 3:2 conversion too.
But maybe I wasn\'t clear: I\'m going in the other direction: I need to convert 60p for a 24p timeline. It\'s not for a \"look\" it\'s just that the timeline includes a lot of 24fps film transfer and that\'s what the producer is editing in.

But I\'ll try AE to see if it does a smoother conversion from 60p to 24 fps than Clipwrap. Trying EditReady too.

Robert Withers

Independent/personal/avant-garde cinema, New York City


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Using Sony 60p footage in an FCP 7 23.98 timeline
on Jan 5, 2015 at 8:57:13 pm

Oh.

Well, 60P to 24P in After Effects is equally easy. Just put the 60p clip in a 24p comp. For each 24p frame, the 60p frames will advance 3, then 2, then 3, then 2. So you're good going 60p to 24p.

It's the same logic as applies if you put a 60p clip in a 30p comp, where you see every other 60p frame. But because it's 24p, you get 3-2-3-2.

It's dead simple.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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