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What are the benefits to grading metadata compered to ProRes444?

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Edwin Street
What are the benefits to grading metadata compered to ProRes444?
on Nov 14, 2014 at 3:52:23 pm

It would save me a lot of time if I could edit and grade my ProRes444 files rather than reconforming to the r3d files and grading them. Are there any benefits to grading metadata in the r3d files over the ProRes444 files?


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Shane Ross
Re: What are the benefits to grading metadata compered to ProRes444?
on Nov 14, 2014 at 4:15:17 pm

[Edwin Street] "Are there any benefits to grading metadata"

Unclear on how one can "grade metadata." You don't grade that...you grade the image. Metadata is information about the footage.

But now...grading ProRes 4444 vs the original R3D files. Where will this project be shown? IMAX? Movie theater? TV? BluRay? Web? I don't think any real difference will be apparent between the two unless you are going to show on the BIG screen. And even then, the only people who would notice any difference, if you showed them both samples (which you aren't), would be professional colorists and DPs.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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David Roth Weiss
Re: What are the benefits to grading metadata compered to ProRes444?
on Nov 14, 2014 at 4:34:31 pm
Last Edited By David Roth Weiss on Nov 14, 2014 at 4:39:58 pm

The main reason to consider grading and mastering with the R3D files is future-proofing. All Hollywood TV shows and movies are now mastered in 4K for that very reason, even though there are no venues for 4K now. If your project has any "legs," i.e. a shelf life beyond the next couple of years, you may find no distribution outlets will to accept it down the road, and considering that many projects do have a 10-year or longer shelf life during which they continue to earn money, and a potential for a redistribution later if the material warrants, do you really want to short change all the effort that's been put into the project so far?

BTW, for the record, metadata = data about data - i.e. the data the camera writes when shooting, logging info you add later, timecode, etc., is all metadata.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Shane Ross
Re: What are the benefits to grading metadata compered to ProRes444?
on Nov 14, 2014 at 4:39:32 pm

[David Roth Weiss] "All Hollywood TV shows and movies are now mastered in 4K for that very reason, even though there are no venues for 4K now."

I disagree with that. Hardly any are. Some very high end TV shows, yes. But I'll wager that less than 1-2% are mastered in 4K.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Mark Suszko
Re: What are the benefits to grading metadata compered to ProRes444?
on Nov 14, 2014 at 4:51:13 pm

I watched "Interstellar" last week in 4K at my local cineplex. At least, the price on my ticket says I did.


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David Roth Weiss
Re: What are the benefits to grading metadata compered to ProRes444?
on Nov 14, 2014 at 5:08:15 pm

[Shane Ross] "I disagree with that. Hardly any are. Some very high end TV shows, yes. But I'll wager that less than 1-2% are mastered in 4K."

You'd be surprised Shane... Almost all the network series and studio movies are mastered in 4K.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions


David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.


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Shane Ross
Re: What are the benefits to grading metadata compered to ProRes444?
on Nov 14, 2014 at 5:25:28 pm

Blown up to, perhaps. But onlines still happening at 1080. VERY few facilities have 4K capabilities. They re onlining at 1080, and blowing up to 4K.

Which is silly. 4K in the home is a silly marketing ploy by TV makers. We barely notice the difference between 720p and 1080p on TVs in our homes now....4K? It's a way for TV makers to sell TVs. 3D TVs were a big flop.

I'm sure it will succeed on a small scale. Yes, high end TV and film will master to 4K. And yes, some people will have 4K TVs. But currently there are no 4K channels. Two online distributors are streaming 4K, which might look awful due to "net neutrality" issues and bandwidth issues. Getting 1080 to look good streamed is a challenge...4K? And the bandwidth for 4K television isn't there yet. Less than 40% of Cable and Satellite TV channels are even HD! Most are still SD. How can 4K be here when HD isn't even fully here?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Roger Poole
Re: What are the benefits to grading metadata compered to ProRes444?
on Nov 15, 2014 at 5:23:23 pm

I hope I'll be excused for coming in here sideways. I agree with Shane to a large degree about the viability of 4k for the consumer market. Yes you can buy a 4k capable TV but the TV networks can't transmit it OTA and if they manage to do that in the future it will only by compressing the hell out of it so what's the point.
However, I used to think, what's the point of 4k? Well, someone recently pointed out that 4k is a fantastic opportunity for post production. There's enough pixel density in there to enable us to completely re-frame the shots, something which has never been possible before. We can zoom in 100% and still have a 1080 pixel count, which more than likely is going to be the output format of the finished movie anyway. The creative possibilities of 4k are revolutionary but for the consumer, the man on the sofa, yeah I agree, it's just a marketing ploy.


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Michael Gissing
Re: What are the benefits to grading metadata compered to ProRes444?
on Nov 17, 2014 at 8:30:34 pm

To the question. Grading r3d files gives the colorist the ability to adjust things like color temp, ISO etc plus have the gamma control over the full 14 stops.

Once baked into ProRes4444 the gamma is rec 709 and so recovery of image highlights or shadow detail becomes limited. If your footage was well shot, exposed nicely and lit to give you an image without highlight clipping or shadow detail crushing, then the ProRes4444 is going to be fine. If you are used to stills work then it is the same as RAW versus jpeg.

Relinking to the r3d however is really simple as long as you made the ProRes files properly so that timecode and file names are identical to the original (except for the file extension being .mov not .r3d .


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Daryl K Davis
Re: What are the benefits to grading metadata compered to ProRes444?
on Nov 18, 2014 at 8:43:07 pm

ProRes 4444 is not necessarily Rec.709 exclusive. You can work with ProRes files with Log C encoding.

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DK Davis / Editor/ Post Super
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Edwin Street
Re: What are the benefits to grading metadata compered to ProRes444?
on Nov 19, 2014 at 3:26:07 am

How do you do that?


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Edwin Street
Re: What are the benefits to grading metadata compered to ProRes444?
on Nov 19, 2014 at 3:45:12 am

[Michael Gissing] "Relinking to the r3d however is really simple as long as you made the ProRes files properly so that timecode and file names are identical to the original (except for the file extension being .mov not .r3d ."

Does Redcine-x Pro keep the timecode when exporting to Quicktime file?


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Daryl K Davis
Re: What are the benefits to grading metadata compered to ProRes444?
on Nov 19, 2014 at 4:31:43 pm

Yes, it keeps the source time-code on ProRes export in REDCINE-X. To keep Log colorspace I export with REDLog Gamma Space setting.

-------------------------
DK Davis / Editor/ Post Super
-------------------------


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