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Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?

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Ted Coakley
Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 4, 2014 at 7:58:01 am

I.
Can anyone tell me why my FCP7 is cropping my HVX200 video upon import (Log/Transfer) - and better yet, how to stop it? The crop is very minimal, but noticeable, both vertically and horizontally.

MY SOURCE FOOTAGE (according to P2ViewerPlus and/or how I remember shooting):
Video Codec: DV100_720/23.98 (DV100 same as DVCPro HD, right?)
Frame Rate: 23.98p (I had set camera to shoot 720pN24)

MY LOG/TRANSFER SETTINGS/WORKFLOW:
1. copy (and backup!) P2 folders/files to computer
2. FCP7 > Log/Transfer > Add Volume > Navigate to and Select copy of P2 card (which properly populates the Log/Transfer Browser)
3. Set Log/Transfer's Import Preferences (leave "Remove Advanced...." checked; Nothing else applies here to do, as DV100/DVCProHD doesn't appear as a Source Format)
4. Complete Logging fields (i.e. Reel, Clip Name, etc).
5. Click "Add Clip to Queue"

RESULT (and the PROBLEM!): a new .mov file (960x720, says Get Info in the Finder) that shows less of the image around the edges (in FCP7, in Finder's "QuickLook" and in QuickTime Player) than what I can see of the camera original in P2ViewerPlus!

I've been researching forums a lot, reading previous Posts, viewing videos - I can't find anything on this. Anybody have anything to offer on this?

MY SYSTEM (if it matters):
MacBook Pro, OS10.7.5, FCP7.0.3, 2.5 GHz Intel Core i7, 8GB memory

----------

II.
In addition to figuring this out, I'd like to figure out why my Sequences' Canvases aren't equally populated/filled-in, despite the Sequences a) having all the exact same Settings and b) having copies of exact same Timelines/Edits made up of Clips (which populate the Viewer equally/properly) referencing same Media Files!

THANKS!


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Steve Eisen
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 4, 2014 at 1:35:04 pm

What you are seeing is normal! DVCPro HD is 960x720 (anamorphic). FCP scales it to 1280x720. No problems, nothing to worry about.

Steve Eisen
Eisen Video Productions
Vice President
Chicago Creative Pro Users Group


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Ted Coakley
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 4, 2014 at 5:20:21 pm

Hi Steve, thanks for your reply!

In my case, FCP is NOT scaling my 720pN24 .MXF/DVCPro HD footage to 1280x720.

What FCP is doing in my case is converting my 720pN24 .MXF files/DVCPro HD footage to 960x720 .MOV files (as I can see when I Reveal the resultant Clips in the Finder), which are lacking some of the cropped-out edge imagery (as I can see in Finder, FCP and QT). So, scaling to 1280x720 is not the explanation in my circumstance - so the problem remains.

By the way, even if the footage WERE being scaled from 960x720 (1.33:1) to 1280x720 (1.77:1), that should only cause a cropping in one dimension (not both both a vertical crop AND a horizontal crop, as I'm seeing in my situation), right?

Finally, whatever the reason for the cropping, in no case is it "no problems, nothing to worry about" that FCP is cropping my footage. I don't want to be dealt footage to work with that is different than the way I chose to shoot it (does anyone?).

Thanks again,
Ted


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Shane Ross
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 4, 2014 at 6:18:24 pm

[Ted Coakley] "What FCP is doing in my case is converting my 720pN24 .MXF files/DVCPro HD footage to 960x720 .MOV files"

FCP doesn't convert...it re-wraps. It is a direct copy, only the container is changed from MXF to MOV. The footage was shot 960x720...and the QT file is 960x720. DVCPRO HD is an anamorphic format. FCP will SCALE it to fit a 16:9 window...1280x720. Unsqueeze it if you will.

How much is being cropped? Are we talking a small fraction...or a HUGE chunk? Camera Viewfinders are set to OVERSCAN...so you can see all of the image. And several broadcast monitors have this option too, so you can see all the way to the edge. I'm wondering if FCP's and QTs interface crops a little of those edges. Since I rarely shoot the stuff I edit, I never notice.

There are several solutions for viewing MXF files natively in QT, and QUickview and FCP. You can see if they offer free demos, and then install and look at the raw files to see if they match what you saw in the camera.

Know that TVs and Computer displays will crop that edge anyway...and you cannot plan to have the full image seen. This is why there are ACTION SAFE and TITLE SAFE zones.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Ted Coakley
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 4, 2014 at 7:19:47 pm

Hi Shane, thanks for your reply!


[Shane Ross] "It is a direct copy, only the container is changed from MXF to MOV"

When I view the camera original footage on computer (an editor can use a MXF/P2 viewer like P2ViewerPlus, don't need to be the shooter) what I SEE that FCP has made is clearly NOT a "direct copy" of what I see that the HVX200 made. I can see this by the fact that there are outer/edge image elements in the camera-original footage that are seen in P2ViewerPlus, that are NOT seen in FCP's Log/Transfer .MOV files.

Despite being a shooter for 20 years, and an every-blue-moon editor (going back to "The Cube" and Razor if you remember those! plus FCP 2-7 and various Premieres), I don't fully GET scaling/anamorphic/squeezing/containers/codecs. I know how to frame/compose/block/light/expose/direct, but I'm no tecchie and it's always a struggle for me to keep up with the changing formats/technologies!

What I DO know is that this HVX200 DVCPro HD camera original shows outer/edge parts of the image that the FCP .MOV files don't.
Regardless of the explanation, it IS happening.
Not much is being cropped, yes a small fraction, no not a huge chunk.


[Shane Ross] "Camera Viewfinders are set to OVERSCAN...so you can see all of the image. And several broadcast monitors have this option too, so you can see all the way to the edge."

I hear ya, I think about that, too! But, regardless of camera viewfinders or broadcast monitors being set to overscan, I'm looking on a computer screen in a P2ViewerPlus window that shows all the camera original MXF/HVX200/DVCProHD image - which does NOT show up in the FCP Log/Transfer .MOV files.


[Shane Ross] "Know that TVs and Computer displays will crop that edge anyway...and you cannot plan to have the full image seen. This is why there are ACTION SAFE and TITLE SAFE zones."

I do know that many TVs will crop the edge (albeit mostly older models, tubes and the like), but computer app windows (i.e. QT, VLC, FCP, etc) don't typically crop image files. Even if some TV or app DOES crop the image, I don't want FCP Log/Transfer (or anything else) pre-cropping my camera-original in the first place! Otherwise, there should be a FCP-LOG/TRANSFER CROP zone in my viewfinder in addition to ACTION SAFE and TITLE SAFE, right?


[Shane Ross] " I'm wondering if FCP's and QTs interface crops a little of those edges."

I'm wondering that, too :-) It appears it does do that - and not just on the display, but FCP maintains the same cropped image on Export (as I can see the same cropped image exported in Finder). Is it doing that? If so, then a) is it supposed to? b) Is there a way to get it to NOT destroy part of my image, or are we to be stuck with that edge destruction (cropping) as an inherent quality of FCP Log and Transfer? I'm thinking those are the questions I need answered, if anyone here knows those answers.

Thanks!!


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Shane Ross
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 4, 2014 at 8:08:30 pm

Since you can view both on your computer...can you take screen shots of the P2 Viewer VS QT and FCP? So we can see?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Ted Coakley
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 4, 2014 at 8:25:13 pm

[Shane Ross] "can you take screen shots of the P2 Viewer VS QT and FCP? So we can see?"

.....looking up how to do screen shots (despite having done it umpteen times over the years, I never remember, just don't do it often enough) .... back in a bit.....


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Ted Coakley
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 4, 2014 at 8:39:10 pm

Got it :-)



Notice the top image (HVX200 DVCProHD 720pN24 camera original showing in P2ViewerPlus window) shows in ITS top right corner 3.5 white columns on building to the right of the tree....
AS OPPOSED TO....
the lower image (QT display of the 960x720 image created by FCP7's Log/Transfer of aforementioned cam original) shows in ITS top right corner only 3 of those white columns.

The difference is subtle, and there are other indicators of cropping you can see around all the edges of the windows, but the crop is definitely there.

Does this help?

(And, curious question: Does seeing this screen grab help anyone understand my scenario/issue/questions in a way that my previous phrasing and rephrasings of did not? I'd just like to know, because I thought I'd explained it fairly well, without the image, and I'd like to know where my explanation fell short and didn't represent what the screen grab does.)

Thanks!!


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Shane Ross
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 4, 2014 at 8:41:16 pm

Ahh...thanks. This helps. I to think that the size of the image missing is very miniscule. But it is missing. That is odd.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Ted Coakley
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 4, 2014 at 8:59:10 pm

[Shane Ross] " I to think that the size of the image missing is very miniscule. But it is missing. That is odd."

Miniscule, and insignificant in this instance, but maybe significant in other instances - and thus the cropping is not only odd, but unacceptable (unless one must just get used to framing with the impending crop taken into account).

Anybody know if there is a way to avoid the cropping?

Thanks!


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Shane Ross
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 5, 2014 at 3:41:59 am

Holy Cow...you are right. Here are the samples I took:

Raw MXF in Quicktime:



And then imported via FCP, and opened in QT:



Look at the window frame on the upper right, and the edge of the sign on the left.

Never noticed this before.

Here's the same clip AMA'd and transcoded in Avid...full image:



Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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John Pale
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 5, 2014 at 4:55:50 pm

[Shane Ross] "Never noticed this before.
"


See my post below about the QuickTime Pro aperture setting. In my limited tests, it seems to work. Weird that Apple buries that setting and doesn't offer it at all in Quicktime X.


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Ted Coakley
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 5, 2014 at 5:51:38 pm

Is your post about QTPro aperture setting in this thread (I don't remember it)?

***Check out John Pale's post in this thread about Conform:Production (http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/8/1182746). It doesn't totally solve the problem, but shows that the .MOV file DOES contain the full frame image - it just ain't showing it in various viewers/editors - and maybe would help lead people more savvy than me to a full-solution! Then, my post replying to his has relevant/pursuant thoughts/Qs.


[John Pale] "Weird that Apple buries that setting and doesn't offer it at all in Quicktime X."

I disagree with that. Frustrating and nonsensical, yes, but weird (if you mean unusual or uncommon) I'd say no way. If I had the time or emotional fortitude to address every frustrating and seemingly nonsensical/dumbshit thing Apple (or Microsoft or Adobe or Dell or pick-any-phone/cable/internet/telecom company, IRS, ETC ETC) did, it would be a full time job for me and a staff of 20 me's. I swear, with all the obstructing or distracting issues I run into (like this weird cropping thing), I feel like a world-class sprinter who rarely has the time to train/compete because I'm always so busy weaving the fibers to repair breaking shoelaces and harvesting the rubber and fashioning it into better fitting soles for my shoes. I wonder if all other editors and computer users are equally frustrated, or just much better shoelace-fiber-weavers and shoe-sole-rubber-harvesters/fashioners than I am! :-ppp


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Shane Ross
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 4, 2014 at 8:39:32 pm

Shift-Command_4...draw a box around what you want to take a picture of.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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John Pale
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 5, 2014 at 3:05:08 am

In Quicktime Pro, open the movie, then select "Show Movie Properties" from the Window Menu.

In the Properties window, select the movie itself (not the video track, then go to the Presentation Pane.

Click "Conform aperture to:" select Production from the drop down menu.

See if that helps.


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Ted Coakley
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 5, 2014 at 3:35:32 am

Hi John, thanks for your reply!

I have QT Player Version 10.1 (not QTPro), and I don't see "Show Movie Properties" in the Window Menu or anywhere else, nor do I see "Conform aperture to:" anywhere.
Any other way to about it whatever "Conform aperture to:" is supposed to achieve?

Thanks,
Ted


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John Pale
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 5, 2014 at 4:35:21 pm

You need Quicktime Pro to do this. Not an option in QuickTime X's player.

If you have access to FCP7, its on the install disk. You get QTPro for free with an FCP7 install. It installs the Quicktime Player for v7 in your Utilities folder (look there, you may have it and not know). Even though its quite old, it still works just fine in Mavericks.


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Ted Coakley
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 5, 2014 at 5:40:35 pm

Some "wow"s, "huh"s and Qs to reply to this:

a) YES, I DO have QT7 in my Utilities - thanks for pointing it out!

b) I have QTPlayer7, NOT QT7 PRO.

c) Despite being QTPlayer7, not Pro, I still can access the Movie Properties > Presentation > Conform: Production setting you mention. So, is getting QT7Pro necessary for some reason?

d) Why does QTPlayer7 have functionality that later generation QT10 Player does not (i.e Open Image Sequence (That I've been searching for and wondering where it went for last few weeks!) and Show Movie Properties)?! Anybody have any thoughts/advice on whether to use QTPlayer10 vs QTPlayer7, vs either version of Pro? Seems rather convoluted/nonsensical at this point (considering 7 has functionality 10 does not).

e) *** YES - setting Conform to Production returned the full frame image - In QTPlayer7, that is. I saved the file w/the Conform:Production setting, then opened again in various viewers (i.e. QTPlayer10, FCP7, Finder's Quick Look), and it only shows the full frame in QTPlayer7.

f) SO, I guess FCP7 Log/Transfer did NOT crop the image, but rather leave a marker in the .MOV file it made to tell viewers (i.e. QTPlayer10, FCP7, Finder's Quick Look) to NOT show the full image?

g) Is there a way to get FCP7 and other viewers/editors to utilize the whole image that actually is there in the .MOV file, just like your Conform:Production technique did?

h) I don't have Mavericks, I have 10.7.5 on my 2011 MacBook Pro. Afraid to upgrade, as I loathe the dozens (scores? hundreds?) of hours of time/troubleshooting/backingup/restoring/verifying-files-exist that always follow reinstalling or OS upgrades. Stomach turns at the thought of it.

WOW, interesting/frustrating.

THANKS!


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John Pale
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 5, 2014 at 7:52:21 pm

Sounds like introduced more questions than I answered.

Some points...

If you have FC Studio installed, QuickTime Player 7 should detect it and unlock Quicktime Pro. You can check to see if you have Pro enabled by seeing if "Export" is greyed out. If it is, Pro is not enabled. I think without Pro, you also don't get to change anything in the Properties Pane. If you can, then maybe you do have Pro. Its been awhile since I have had to unlock Pro features on my system.

It appears that the image is not really cropped. The player you use for Quicktime crops it by default, but its non destructive.

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht4265

https://documentation.apple.com/en/finalcutpro/usermanual/index.html#chapte...

Of course, no other Quicktime Players respect this setting....including Quicktime Player X. I believe it is possible to set this bit in a web embedded QT movie, but have not tried it. QuickTime Player X has much diminished functionality than QuickTime 7, so much so that Apple continued to recommend installing QT7 to all FCP users.

In short, its a limitation with Quicktime that Apple feels is a feature. If you can't live with it, you are going to have to export to something other than a Quicktime movie.


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Ted Coakley
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 5, 2014 at 11:45:59 pm

[John Pale] " You can check to see if you have Pro enabled by seeing if "Export" is greyed out. If it is, Pro is not enabled. I think without Pro, you also don't get to change anything in the Properties Pane. If you can, then maybe you do have Pro"

Export is not greyed out, I can change things in the Properties Pane, and I DO see mention of "Pro" at File > About QuickTime Player 7 (there is a little "Pro" icon on the blue "Q" icon.). I also see "Pro" mentioned at File > Registration. Although it doesn't say Pro in a normal obvious location for such mention (i.e. app's name in Toolbar), I guess it is Pro.


[John Pale] "https://documentation.apple.com/en/finalcutpro/usermanual/index.html#chapte..."

a-ha! This article says, "Note: Final Cut Pro always displays video in the Production aperture display mode. The default setting for QuickTime movies exported from Final Cut Pro is also the Production aperture display mode."
Strange that it sets Conform:Production (maintains the full-frame/image) view in FCP and in FCP exports, but the Capture Scratch's .MOV files from Log/Transfer are Conform:Clean (NOT full-frame/image).


[John Pale] "The player you use for Quicktime crops it by default,"

There isn't a player I use for QT. The player I use is QT.


[John Pale] "QuickTime Player X has much diminished functionality than QuickTime 7, so much so that Apple continued to recommend installing QT7 to all FCP users."

B-b-but, why? Why would later version be so less functional than earlier version?



[John Pale] "Sounds like introduced more questions than I answered."
Yep - sorry! Hopefully someone can answer the rest of the Qs.

THANKS!


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John Pale
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 6, 2014 at 1:04:16 am

"a-ha! This article says, "Note: Final Cut Pro always displays video in the Production aperture display mode. The default setting for QuickTime movies exported from Final Cut Pro is also the Production aperture display mode."
Strange that it sets Conform:Production (maintains the full-frame/image) view in FCP and in FCP exports, but the Capture Scratch's .MOV files from Log/Transfer are Conform:Clean (NOT full-frame/image)."

How are you determining the aperture settings of movies in the Capture Scratch folder? Are you viewing in QuickTime Player 7 or in QuickTime Player X? QuickTime Player X always displays as Clean. It ignores the Production setting. Only QuickTime Player 7 will display it using the Production setting.

"There isn't a player I use for QT. The player I use is QT."

QuickTime is a part of the operating system. To view QuickTime movies, you are using a player. You can use QuickTime player 7 (pro), QuickTime Player X probably your system default, when you double click a movie.
There are also third party players.


"[John Pale] "QuickTime Player X has much diminished functionality than QuickTime 7, so much so that Apple continued to recommend installing QT7 to all FCP users."

B-b-but, why? Why would later version be so less functional than earlier version?"

I think that's a good question for Tim Cook. A very good question. I assume many asked the same question when FCPX was first released.


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Ted Coakley
Re: Why is FCP7 Log/Transfer cropping video?
on Apr 6, 2014 at 2:38:07 am

[John Pale] "How are you determining the aperture settings of movies in the Capture Scratch folder? Are you viewing in QuickTime Player 7 or in QuickTime Player X? QuickTime Player X always displays as Clean. It ignores the Production setting. Only QuickTime Player 7 will display it using the Production setting."

Yeah, I guess I was viewing those Capture Scratch .MOVs in their cropped mode, via Finder's QuickLook, or maybe in QT10.



[John Pale] "To view QuickTime movies, you are using a player. You can use QuickTime player 7 (pro), QuickTime Player X probably your system default, when you double click a movie."

Oh, you're asking what player do I use for QT movies. Got it. Your previous post asked what player for QT (without you mentioning QT movies then, I thought you were asking what player for QT the app (which didn't make sense to me) not about QT movies)?

Thanks much!


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