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May have to just convert all 23.98 footage up to 59.94!! Man!

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David Lunday
May have to just convert all 23.98 footage up to 59.94!! Man!
on Sep 28, 2013 at 10:06:08 am

So I think I've got it all pretty much figured out here and I don't think it's going to be easy at all! I wanted to see if I could just convert the few shots I have at 59.94 down to 23.98...but I tried doing this and it of course looks terrible! Very jittery. So basically, I'm going to somehow have to convert 95% of this feature film (86 minutes) up to 59.94?! My God...just because the DP wasn't paying attention and shot the other 5% at the higher frame rate instead of 23.98. So my only option is to do all of this manually? since I've already edited the entire film...That is a TON of work!! I did a 60 frame per second export of it using quicktime conversion and it looks pretty good..a little extra stroby but I think definitely watchable...is that my ONLY choice then? Unless I want to spend WAY more time just to convert everything??

Also, I didn't just jump in and start editing without knowing what was going on...I specifically told both our DP's we were shooting at 24fps (which of course they did most of the time)...wow


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Shane Ross
Re: May have to just convert all 23.98 footage up to 59.94!! Man!
on Sep 28, 2013 at 2:05:52 pm

How are you delivering this?

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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David Lunday
Re: May have to just convert all 23.98 footage up to 59.94!! Man!
on Sep 28, 2013 at 5:24:25 pm

Hey Shane, I have always intended delivering at 24fps (that's what my editing time base is set at, as 23.98)...which is what I've been using for the post work as well..ADR etc. with of course my codec being DVCPro HD 720p60. I tested 3 different shots last night, converting 59.94 to 24fps BTW...one looked great, one other looked pretty good (passable probably), but the third looked terrible..was a pan up shot of a moving car with lots of daylight...literally looked like a strobe light! If I could just get the conversion better! And I'm supposed to be sending a mov file for a conform (I made some additional cuts recently, which is now THE FINAL version of the film) to the post studio...and I don't know how much it will affect the audio sync if I were to now export it in QuickTime conversion at a higher frame rate (59.94) since it seems to look better that way...yes there is some slight ghosting with the 23.98 footage having to duplicate frames but it looks better overall I think....the whole point of shooting at 24fps is to have it look more like film, which I much prefer..so obviously I really wouldn't want to convert all my 23.98 stuff up to 59.94 because then I would lose that


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Shane Ross
Re: May have to just convert all 23.98 footage up to 59.94!! Man!
on Sep 29, 2013 at 12:17:40 am

By delivery I mean tape...HDCAM, HDCAM SR, DVCPRO HD...or digital file, or DVD/BluRay.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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David Lunday
Re: May have to just convert all 23.98 footage up to 59.94!! Man!
on Sep 29, 2013 at 1:28:00 am

Well definitely BluRay and DVD...but I also want to enter into as many film festivals as I can...not sure what they require exactly, I do need to look into that...you might know better than me...may need to uprez to true 1080 too? So I would like it to be seen in theaters as well as BluRay/DVD


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Dave LaRonde
Re: May have to just convert all 23.98 footage up to 59.94!! Man!
on Sep 30, 2013 at 12:29:06 am

This may have some bearing on the discussion: the gent shot on a Panny HVX 200 at 720, and 24p -- not 24PN -- and cut the footage in a 23.98 timeline. 24-over-60 footage cut in a 23.98 timeline.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Matt Lyon
Re: May have to just convert all 23.98 footage up to 59.94!! Man!
on Oct 1, 2013 at 3:01:48 am

I'm not too familiar with this camera, but it sounds like the footage has "film style" 3:2 pulldown? (In other words "AA/BB/BC/CD/DD" field cadence).
If so, you should deliver at 23.98. Corral all the "wrong" 59.94 clips in the finder. Duplicate them and remove the pulldown using cinema tools. Many posts describing how to do this can be found on this forum, or in the cinema tools manual.
Verify that the pulldown has been successfully removed and import the new 23.98 footage into FCP. You will need to replace all the bad shots with the fixed media. Work on a new video track so you can A/B your work. Once you've replaced everything you can send a 23.98 QuickTime out to your post house.
HTH,

Matt Lyon
Editor
Toronto


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Dave LaRonde
Re: May have to just convert all 23.98 footage up to 59.94!! Man!
on Oct 1, 2013 at 11:47:44 pm

This particular camera -- at the setting used -- accomplishes 3:2 pulldown through the use of whole frames: no fields. The first frame of 24p video is recorded as three frames, the second frame of 24p video as two frames, the third frame of 24p video as three frames... and so on.

If you cut this footage in a 23.98 timeline, it's VERY easy to lose that 3-2-3-2 cadence and really mess up an export to 23.98.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Matt Lyon
Re: May have to just convert all 23.98 footage up to 59.94!! Man!
on Oct 2, 2013 at 1:12:10 am

Thanks for the info Dave, I was not aware of that. Cinema Tools probably doesn't know what to do with that kind of footage. But is there no way to remove the redundant frames? Via Compressor maybe? Without having any footage to test, I can't be of more help. But I still think the best course of action is to convert the original footage back to 23.98 (via proper redundant frame removal) and conform the shots back into the timeline.

Matt Lyon
Editor
Toronto


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David Lunday
Re: May have to just convert all 23.98 footage up to 59.94!! Man!
on Oct 2, 2013 at 4:48:52 am

Matt, ok, I THINK I figured it out. And actually it was from an old post that Shane Ross put up a few years ago. You can check out that posting here if you want: http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/8/996101

When you say redundant frames are you referring to the 59.94fps footage? OR, are you saying to take all the original 23.98fps 720p60 footage and put it through compressor to encode it with 720p24 to remove the redundant frames you are referring to? If that were the case then it seems I would just put the entire sequence through compressor with the 720p24 encoding.

Well anyway, this is what I did in compressor...I simply took one of the 59.94fps shots (with it's compression being 720p60) and encoded it with the 720p24...which of course turns it into 23.98fps...then just put it back into my sequence over the old clip so it matches all the other stuff...and of course I would do the same thing to all the other clips which are still 59.94fps. Is this what you were referring to?

The thing is, all of the footage (both 24.98fps and the 59.94fps) mixed has always looked fine together on the timeline..which is to say it has always looked 24fps (like film)...and so it seems like there would be a fairly simplistic way to convert one or the other...still trying to get the hang of this stuff...


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Matt Lyon
Re: May have to just convert all 23.98 footage up to 59.94!! Man!
on Oct 2, 2013 at 1:34:16 pm

[David Lunday] "When you say redundant frames are you referring to the 59.94fps footage? OR, are you saying to take all the original 23.98fps 720p60 footage and put it through compressor to encode it with 720p24 to remove the redundant frames you are referring to? If that were the case then it seems I would just put the entire sequence through compressor with the 720p24 encoding."

David, try opening up two of your original clips in quicktime player. One should be a 23.98 clip and one should be a 59.94 clip. Step through both clips a frame at a time, using the right arrow key. You'll see that in the 23.98 clip, every frame is a unique snapshot of a moment in time. For the 59.94 clip, you'll notice a pattern of duplicate (what I am calling "redundant") frames.

So there is no way to remove redundant frames from 23.98 footage, since they do not exist. It is the 59.94 clips we need to fix.

[David Lunday] "I simply took one of the 59.94fps shots (with it's compression being 720p60) and encoded it with the 720p24...which of course turns it into 23.98fps...then just put it back into my sequence over the old clip so it matches all the other stuff...and of course I would do the same thing to all the other clips which are still 59.94fps. Is this what you were referring to? "

Yes, this is exactly what I meant. Convert the original, "bad" 59.94 footage to 23.98 and cut it back into the sequence.

But that being said, you need to make sure Compressor is doing its job properly. Open the new 23.98 clip in quicktime player and step through it one frame at a time. Is each frame unique? Or are there still duplicate frames? Use a section where these is lots of camera motion, because it is easier to spot duplicate frames. Also, watch out for new, or "interpolated" frames, which are a blend of two frames. This is also a problem. If you find Compressor is creating these interpolated frames, you should try setting the frame rate conversion method to "nearest frame." Sometimes it takes several sets of test to find the right combination of settings. It sounds like Shane has got this to work, maybe he can elaborate on the settings he used.

HTH,

Matt Lyon
Editor
Toronto


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David Lunday
Re: May have to just convert all 23.98 footage up to 59.94!! Man!
on Oct 2, 2013 at 11:27:34 pm

Matt, yeah I tested the clip in QuickTime and it is 24 frames now exactly! I'm not really aware of what interpolated frames look like but nothing seems out of place...plays just like the original except at 24 frames....SOOO relieved! So I think that's it unless something else comes up...I will of course test on a DVD when I get everything cut back in...Now I just have to figure out how to transcode the HDV 1080p24 shots that are also in the film...there's only about 10 of them though..I just put up a new post about it today if you want to take a look at it. Thanks Matt!


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Dave LaRonde
Re: May have to just convert all 23.98 footage up to 59.94!! Man!
on Oct 3, 2013 at 3:11:43 am

You're right: the best thing to do would be to convert the 24p 59.94 footage to 23.976.

I can only recommend using After Effects to do it: simply put a 24p 59.94 clip -- untrimmed, the entire clip -- into a 23.976 comp and render. You're done! It's that simple.

And if you only had a few clips, it WOULD be simple. I doubt you have only a few clips. I hope for your sake that someone has a better method than mine to fix that footage!

But it does work.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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