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Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?

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jarrod hurwitz
Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Aug 19, 2013 at 8:19:38 pm

Hi

I've been searching through forums about the topic of exporting my final product for broadcast.

I'm shooting with the AF100, which shoots 4:2:0. I learned that it's ok to not use some sort of external recorder - but after editing, to export Pro Res 4:2:2.

Comcast AdDelivery has a list of requirements which I tried to follow using Mpeg streamclip, but quicktime wouldn't play it back because it's lacking a certain codec - I don't know which one.

The following are the requirements - are these possible out of FCP x or FCP 7, if not, which program besides mpeg streamclip, can i try using?

Quicktime:
stream type: Apple ProRes 422
video bit rate: Default (VBR 40- 220 Mbps)
Frame rate: 29.97 (1080i), 59.94 (720p)
GOP Structure: N/A
chroma: 4:2:2
interlacing: Upper field first (1080i), Progressive (720p)
aspect ratio: 16:9
width/height: 1920x1080 (1080i), 1280x720 (720p)
audio type: LPCM
typical transfer: 4-90 minutes
typical export: < 1 minute
Notes: ProRes 422 LT, ProRes 422, ProRes 422 HQ are all acceptable

Thanks in advance

Jarrod


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Shane Ross
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Aug 19, 2013 at 9:21:10 pm

Simple. Make a ProRes HQ sequence, in the frame rate required (1080i 29.97 or 720p 59.94) and either edit with that and then export a self contained QT, or copy and paste into that and render and export. Although I see they also accept ProRes 422 and LT.

You should have converted that footage to ProRes already, so you might already have the proper sequence setting. But please...please tell me you shot and are editing 29.97...and not 23.98. If you shot 23.98, but need to deliver 29.97...that complicates things, but only a little. You could use Compressor to do that conversion....you just need very specific settings.

MPEG STREAMCLP shouldn't be involved in this process at all.

Shane
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Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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jarrod hurwitz
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Aug 19, 2013 at 9:36:03 pm

Hi Shane

Thanks for the response.
I haven't shot yet, no. The shoots in a couple of days... wanted to set everything right to begin with.
I want it to have the 24p look, so you're saying I should shoot it:
PH 1080/60i and then convert to 24p after? I've never done this, always shot 24p (23.98) in camera.. how do i do the conversion in fcp x?

thanks again


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Shane Ross
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Aug 19, 2013 at 9:44:58 pm

If you need to deliver 29.97, then you can shoot 24p over 29.97 in the camera. Most cameras have this option. The ones that shoot 1080p 23.98 call that 24pA (Advanced pulldown removal) or 24pN (23.98 NATIVE). But do tests, and shoot 24p at 29.97. It'll look fine, but be the 29.97 delivery required.

Also, your footage will be converted to ProRes or LT or HQ when you bring it in, as FCP doesn't work with AVCHD native. So that base is covered too.

As for how to do anything in FCX...no clue. I don't use it.

Shane
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Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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jarrod hurwitz
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Aug 20, 2013 at 12:16:51 am

Thanks again.
I just took a few clips and tested them.
the AF100 offers 1080/60i (59.94i), 1080/29.97p (30p), 1080/23.98p(24p)
I know that my HVX had the 1080/24pa option but nothing like that here.

I took both the 24p and 30p clips and pulled them into the same sequence and the sequence is now a 29.97 sequence.
when i use clips which are solely 24p in a sequence, the sequence is a 23.98 sequence.
I exported ONLY a 24p clip, in a 29.97p sequence and now it is a 29.97p QT file (but a 24p clip). Is this the work around that I need to do? Will this work - it will be a 24p look delivered in 29.97 i guess.

Can i get some clarity on what you mean by: "If you need to deliver 29.97, then you can shoot 24p over 29.97 in the camera......shoot 24p at 29.97"

thanks for all the help... This is my first time shooting for TV.


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Shane Ross
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Aug 20, 2013 at 12:33:34 am

[jarrod hurwitz] "Can i get some clarity on what you mean by: "If you need to deliver 29.97, then you can shoot 24p over 29.97 in the camera......shoot 24p at 29.97""

Well, I see that your camera doesn't shoot that format, so the point is moot.

Clarity: 24p over 29.97 means shooting 24fps with pulldown. When you shoot on film at 24fps, but telecine to tape at 29.97, pulldown is added to spread the 24 frames over 30 frames. This means that some frames will be half a field of one frame, and half of another...some frames occuring over 3 fields... Carp! I can't make sense of this. Read this, focus on 2:3 pulldown:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine

ANYWAYS...some cameras, before they could shoot 23.98 fps native, would shoot 24p but at 29.97...basically shooting pulldown to tape. So you'd get the 24p look, but at 30 frames per second. Along comes tapeless and now you can shoot 23.98 native, so now that camera will shoot that, and NOT the 24p over 30.

SO...if you want to shoot 23.98, but deliver 29.97...you will have to do some converting in the end. If you were going out to tape, this would be easy, as capture cards add the proper pulldown. But you aren't outputting to tape, you are delivering a 29.97 digital file.

But you cannot...repeat...CANNOT edit 23.98 in a 29.97 timeline properly in FCP 7 (or 6, or 5...) FCP does NOT add the proper pulldown. Avid does, Adobe does. So what you have to do is edit in a 23.98 timeline, export a file from that, and then do the frame rate conversion on that final file with Compressor.

23.98 to 29.97 via Compressor:

1. Drop clips you want to convert into Compressor

2. In Compressor, select your video then right click and choose NEW TARGET WITH SETTING > APPLE > FORMATS > QUICKTIME > APPLE PRORES 422 (HQ). Or pick whatever codec you like to work with.

3. Click on that newly created compression setting to open it in the Inspector window. Click the Encoder tab. Click the Video: (Settingsā€¦) button. Make the frame rate 29.97. Check the interlaced box. Set it's drop down menu to Bottom field first. Click OK.

4. Click the Frame Controls tab. Set Frame Controls to On. Set Output Fields to Bottom first. Leave Deinterlace on Fast. Leave Adaptive Details checked. Leave Rate Conversion set to Fast. Leave the Set Duration to: on 100% and make sure it's radio button is selected and NOT the "so source frames play at 29.97 fps" button.

5. Make changes to the Filters or Geometry sections as needed. Those settings listed above are the ones critical to getting the proper 3:2 pulldown added.

6. Submit the compression, then bring the resulting video back into Final Cut Pro. Place it in a 29.97 timeline and make sure you watch it on an NTSC monitor to verify that it looks good. If you step through it frame-by-frame you should see the familiar pattern of 2 split/interlaced frames followed by 3 whole frames. This is a very important step. I tried many solutions that looked OK playing back on the computer monitor, but looked terrible on the NTSC monitor.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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jarrod hurwitz
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Aug 20, 2013 at 1:19:40 am

thanks so much for this !

I just came across this article..is it the same thing? I guess a different codec

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/converting_frame_rates_compressor.html

I'm going to test out your recipe now.

thank you for taking the time to help.


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jarrod hurwitz
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Aug 20, 2013 at 1:42:59 am

[Shane Ross] "3. Click on that newly created compression setting to open it in the Inspector window. Click the Encoder tab. Click the Video: (Settingsā€¦) button. Make the frame rate 29.97. Check the interlaced box. Set it's drop down menu to Bottom field first. Click OK."

[Shane Ross] "4. Click the Frame Controls tab. Set Frame Controls to On. Set Output Fields to Bottom first. Leave Deinterlace on Fast. Leave Adaptive Details checked. Leave Rate Conversion set to Fast. Leave the Set Duration to: on 100% and make sure it's radio button is selected and NOT the "so source frames play at 29.97 fps" button."

[Shane Ross] "5. Make changes to the Filters or Geometry sections as needed. Those settings listed above are the ones critical to getting the proper 3:2 pulldown added."

Hi Shane
Im testing your recipe now, it's compressing as i type. I wanted to ask about the bottom field first in both #3 & #4. The specs that i got from comcast regarding interlacing is for 1080i--> upper field first, and for 720p--> progressive. Is it going to be okay if i do bottom field first?

Also re: #5, geometry i'll just keep at 16x9, but the filters.. leave as is, as I've exported the QT file from fcp?

Thanks again.


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Shane Ross
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Aug 20, 2013 at 1:51:43 am

Then do Upper field first.

And note...to properly test what this looks like, you need to play it out of a video IO card (AJA, Blackmagic, Matrox) onto an HDTV or broadcast monitor. Computer displays do not show interlacing properly.

Shane
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Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Larry Asbell
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Aug 20, 2013 at 7:03:20 pm

Shane -

Like Avid and Adobe, Final Cut X does do the proper 3:2 pulldown that FCP Legacy never did.

An earlier thread:

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/344/38

(note: contains a number of erroneous responses before the conclusion)



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jarrod hurwitz
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Aug 21, 2013 at 2:59:02 am

Hi Larry



[Larry Asbell] "Like Avid and Adobe, Final Cut X does do the proper 3:2 pulldown that FCP Legacy never did."

so this being said, I can edit and export my 24p footage in a 29.97 sequence using fcp x and not have to do any extra conversions using compressor? fcp x will take care of the pull down issue for me?

Thanks in advance


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Beth Cramer
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Jan 22, 2015 at 6:11:04 pm

Shane,
I know this is an old thread, but I using your specs for conversion and having trouble.
I have a sequence (shot on Alexa 23.98) I edited same as source in premiere pro cc.
Anyway, I need to deliver spots 29.97. I did the conversion through compressor and brought it back into premiere to check it. There is interlacing however.

I didn't have any filters checked.. I didn't see what was listed above in the thread as the critical ones to get proper 3:2 pulldown added so hopefully that's what's wrong.
5. Make changes to the Filters or Geometry sections as needed. Those settings listed above are the ones critical to getting the proper 3:2 pulldown added.

though you made reference to them needing to be correc not clear in the post I was following.
I only will be able to check the conversions on my apple cinema display and Plasma TV hooked up via hmi.

Any suggestions?
Thanks very much,
Beth


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Shane Ross
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Jan 22, 2015 at 6:16:39 pm

[Beth Cramer] "I did the conversion through compressor and brought it back into premiere to check it. There is interlacing however. "

Yes...it will be. Most TV specs call for 1080i59.94... that's 29.97 fps interlaced. Even if you shot 23.98 progressive, it'll air 29.97 interlaced. That's the best way to convert 23.98 to 29.97...is to interlace it. If you need to go 24p to 30p...you are hosed. That conversion repeats frames...no two ways about it. And it'll look stuttery. That's a worse case scenario. You want this to be interlaced.

[Beth Cramer] "I only will be able to check the conversions on my apple cinema display and Plasma TV hooked up via hmi."

TVs display interlacing properly. But you need to feed it a VIDEO signal, not a COMPUTER DISPLAY signal. So to check it properly you'll need a video IO device like AJA and Blackmagic design makes to get the signal over. If you use HDMI out from the computer, that's a computer signal, and computer video signals can't display interlacing properly.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Beth Cramer
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Jan 22, 2015 at 6:36:09 pm

After I selected de interlace in filters with the settings you posted it looked good. I see no interlacing or stutter on the cinema computer display. Can I assume it's correct without checking it on a tv using video IO device?


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Shane Ross
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Jan 22, 2015 at 6:49:00 pm

[Beth Cramer] "After I selected de interlace in filters with the settings you posted it looked good. I see no interlacing or stutter on the cinema computer display."

This is NOT the way to properly check an output for broadcast. A computer video signal will not display interlacing properly...and might disguise the stuttering. This setup is fine for basic editing and client viewing, but if you are the final stop before it gets sent to the network, this is not the way to view it.

[Beth Cramer] "Can I assume it's correct without checking it on a tv using video IO device?"

No. If you are the finishing or online editor...the one making sure that all video levels are legal, that the color is good, that it meets show specs...then you need proper monitoring. ONLY a video IO device and HDTV or Broadcast Monitor can provide this. Those are a requirement if you are the one prepping the show for air.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Beth Cramer
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Jan 22, 2015 at 6:20:14 pm

I checked deinterlace in filters a it worked.
Thanks


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Shane Ross
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Jan 22, 2015 at 6:30:45 pm

If you do that then you'll get repeated frames, and stuttering. Many networks will reject that. I recently had to deal with a 30p deliverable, with a lot of footage shot 24p. Normally this is easy, 24p blends easily across fields in a 29.97 interlaced conversion. But with 30p, no such luck. Occasional frames are repeated and it looks very stuttery.

When feature films are broadcast on TV, or when TV shows that are shot on film or video at 23.98 are aired, they are aired 29.97 interlaced.

Unless your spec calls for 30p...you need to deliver 60i...29.97 interlaced. And that will properly show 23.98.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Mitra Mansouri
Re: Whats the correct way to export for Broadcast?
on Jan 23, 2015 at 5:35:04 am

Hi Shane Ross

When I try to change the video setting in Encoder, it seems it is not active.
It is grey means I am not able to change anything. what's the way?


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