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1080i to 720p for Digital Signage?

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Matt Campbell
1080i to 720p for Digital Signage?
on May 21, 2013 at 4:41:42 pm

All I have is the finished ProRes Master, 1080i29.97. Stepping through shows 3 clean frames and 2 interlaced comb-like frames (showing the fields). I need to down convert this bad boy to 720p30, or should I go p60, to meet the vendor specs. With 720p being a Progressive format, how should I go about it?
First attempt, converted this to progressive, but baked in the interlacing. It looks horrible. I've tried a few tests deinterlacing with Compressor and got decent results, but it looks like I now have a 4:1 cadence vs. new progressive frames for ever step through. I could also reverse telecine this, but that would then leave me with a 23.976 progressive file (i've tested and it worked), but I need 29.97 or 59.94 (60p).

Compressor's frame controls were tested with both Fast and Better for deinterlace and they look indentical and decent, but leave me with 4:1 cadence. 4 clean frame with 1 duplicate frame. Am I stuck with this? Is this okay for digital signage or is there a better way to get clean progressive frames? Playback on the 4:1 file looks fine. I can't tell a difference. Between that and my reverse telecined file @ 24p I made.

OSX 10.7.5 with a 3.39 Ghz Intel Core i7 on a built up Hackintosh
16 GB of RAM with OSX on SSD, (2) internal HDDs RAID'd 1 for project files and External RAID 5 for all project assets (media, GFX, stills, etc.)


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Dave LaRonde
Re: 1080i to 720p for Digital Signage?
on May 21, 2013 at 5:46:26 pm

Here's the crucial question: was the 3:2 pulldown on EVERY SINGLE BIT OF FOOTAGE removed BEFORE editing began?

If yes, that's good because everything was at 23.976 for editing, 3:2 pulldown was added back for 1080 delivery, and the footage can be reverse telecined to 23.976. If you're supposed to deliver 720p 59.94, it will be a chip shot to do the frame rate conversion.

Me, I'd just do it in After Effects: make a 1280x720 59.94 comp, add the footage, scale the footage to fit the comp, and render away: the result is a 3-frame / 2-frrame / 3-frame / 2-frame etc. pattern, and you are DONE!

...BUT... here's the nightmare scenario:
The footage was shot at 24p, they didn't remove the pulldown, they edited at 29.97, and there's actual 29.97 footage mixed in with the 24p stuff. If that's what happened, you have to go through the file cut-by-cut, remove pulldown where necessary, and re-assemble the entire edit in a 720p 59.94 timeline, and correct the inevitable gaps to keep the video's duration consistent with the audio track.

Not much fun, huh?

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Matt Campbell
Re: 1080i to 720p for Digital Signage?
on May 21, 2013 at 6:34:37 pm

I believe when the spots were done originally in HD but shot 60i, so they edited everything at 1080i60 or 29.97fps. Not 24p material. But when I reverse telecined it, everything looked fine. But that's not really my concern as I understand rev Tel this could get me into trouble, but I'm to delivery 720p, anything but 24. So 30p or 60p. And would something like a Teranax do this better.

Is the 4:1 look I'm getting generally acceptable or not? Its just with for video signage and even web use, to me that looks better than baked in interlacing, where you the little nastys like combing show up. I did try your AE render method, results below. I would then assume this is the proper method.

Here are samples. First one is the Compressor, downscaled to 720p with frame controls off. Interlacing looks baked in. frame rate native 29.97. This is wrong, correct?

Baked Interlacing



Second is Compressor with Frame Controls On, deinterlace set to better. frame rate native 29.97. I assume wrong as well, but is this acceptable?

Progressive



Third is AE render. As you said Dave. 59.94 comp, rendered with no fields. So it looks like 1 clean frame, 1 dup frame, 1 clean frame, 2 dup frames. Is this the correct method then. And not #2 with a 4:1 cadence.

AE render 59.94



OSX 10.7.5 with a 3.39 Ghz Intel Core i7 on a built up Hackintosh
16 GB of RAM with OSX on SSD, (2) internal HDDs RAID'd 1 for project files and External RAID 5 for all project assets (media, GFX, stills, etc.)


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Dave LaRonde
Re: 1080i to 720p for Digital Signage?
on May 21, 2013 at 9:31:42 pm

[Matt Campbell] "Third is AE render. As you said Dave. 59.94 comp, rendered with no fields. So it looks like 1 clean frame, 1 dup frame, 1 clean frame, 2 dup frames. Is this the correct method then. And not #2 with a 4:1 cadence."

There should be 3 identical frames, then 2 identical frames, then 3, etc... or 2-3-2-3 etc.

I have a feeling you're looking at it in something that displays at 29.97. But that's the way to do it, in my book: use After Effects because it's dead simple and it works, no fancy settings necessary.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Matt Campbell
Re: 1080i to 720p for Digital Signage?
on May 21, 2013 at 9:45:51 pm

Shoot. I thought I did that right with AE. I'm just viewing this through Quicktime and stepping through frame by frame and not an external monitor, which I don't have yet. Don't get me started on that one. Being the new guy and only guy for that matter, I'm pretty much building up a system to bring it up to date with I/O and montoring. As for the conversion, I'm going to try again tmrw and see if I can get it.

So the comp should 59.94, or make the the same as the native file and set the render to do the conversion?

use After Effects because it's dead simple and it works, no fancy settings necessary.

So AE is better to use for frame rate conversions like this as well as scaling? Does it do a better job than Compressor and the Frame Controls, Fast, Better, Best (which I think Best always yields poor results)?

OSX 10.7.5 with a 3.39 Ghz Intel Core i7 on a built up Hackintosh
16 GB of RAM with OSX on SSD, (2) internal HDDs RAID'd 1 for project files and External RAID 5 for all project assets (media, GFX, stills, etc.)


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Matt Campbell
Re: 1080i to 720p for Digital Signage?
on May 21, 2013 at 9:59:47 pm

I've tried rendering this both ways, in comp and in render que and keep getting the same thing as #3 from previous post. Thing is it looks and sounds just fine. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Its a 1080i29.97 ProRes HQ file. Comp 1280x720, 59.94 and rendered out as ProRes as well. Just don't get it.

OSX 10.7.5 with a 3.39 Ghz Intel Core i7 on a built up Hackintosh
16 GB of RAM with OSX on SSD, (2) internal HDDs RAID'd 1 for project files and External RAID 5 for all project assets (media, GFX, stills, etc.)


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Dave LaRonde
Re: 1080i to 720p for Digital Signage?
on May 21, 2013 at 10:30:24 pm

Before you add the comp to the Render Queue (what codec?,) step through the 23.976 footage frame-by-frame in the comp. If the frame rate is 59.94, you'll see that 3-2-3-2 pattern. It's most apparent where there's motion taking place in the shot.

If you DON'T see that pattern, something ain't kosher, and you'll have to investigate your footage and the comp settings.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Dave LaRonde
Re: 1080i to 720p for Digital Signage?
on May 21, 2013 at 10:33:59 pm

[Matt Campbell] "So AE is better to use for frame rate conversions like this as well as scaling? Does it do a better job than Compressor and the Frame Controls, Fast, Better, Best (which I think Best always yields poor results)?"

In this particular situation and combination of frame rates, AE wins hands down! Don't forget to render in your delivery codec.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Matt Campbell
Re: 1080i to 720p for Digital Signage?
on May 21, 2013 at 11:32:15 pm

Before you add the comp to the Render Queue (what codec?,) step through the 23.976 footage frame-by-frame in the comp. If the frame rate is 59.94, you'll see that 3-2-3-2 pattern. It's most apparent where there's motion taking place in the shot.

Adding pulldown to 23.976, I know how to do with both AE and Compressor, but going from 29.97i to 30p or 60p is where I'm confused.

Dave, sorry for the confusion. The master I have is ProRes HQ 1080i29.97, not 23.976. I want to convert the 1080i footage to 720p30 or 60. Forget that mentioned 23.976, even though the reverse telecine worked. Lets assume it didn't and I need to go from 1080i to 720p.

My delivery is simply a 1280x720 H.264 at either 29.97 or 59.94.

OSX 10.7.5 with a 3.39 Ghz Intel Core i7 on a built up Hackintosh
16 GB of RAM with OSX on SSD, (2) internal HDDs RAID'd 1 for project files and External RAID 5 for all project assets (media, GFX, stills, etc.)


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Dave LaRonde
Re: 1080i to 720p for Digital Signage?
on May 21, 2013 at 11:43:22 pm

Dude. Read carefully:

You said your source file is 29.97, but it contains 3:2 pulldown, right? Remove the pulldown. The resulting file is now 23.976.

Put the 23.976 file into a 59.94, 1260x780 After Effects comp. Scale the 1920 x 1080 clip to fit the comp. That's IT. You have to jump through no further hoops. I told you it was simple!

[Matt Campbell] "My delivery is simply a 1280x720 H.264 at either 29.97 or 59.94."

Oh, that's a new bit of information! In that case, render out the movie in Quicktime's PNG codec. At 59.94. Use the compression application of your choice to go to H.264; AE does a bad job of rendering H.264.

THIS IS REALLY EASY. FOLLOW THE STEPS ABOVE. SUCCESS ENSUES.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Matt Campbell
Re: 1080i to 720p for Digital Signage?
on May 21, 2013 at 11:47:03 pm

Got it. I misunderstood. because I was eliminating the pulldown removal step. But your right, if it works, then why not do it even if its an extra step. My fault.

Appreciate the help as always.

OSX 10.7.5 with a 3.39 Ghz Intel Core i7 on a built up Hackintosh
16 GB of RAM with OSX on SSD, (2) internal HDDs RAID'd 1 for project files and External RAID 5 for all project assets (media, GFX, stills, etc.)


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