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23.98 to 59.94 conversion.

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Kevin Blum
23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Feb 1, 2013 at 7:15:00 pm

I have a web series I cut for a Network which requires delivery on HDCAM in 1080i 59.94. The show is shot in 23.98 and I edit in 23.98 to avoid the 4:1 pulldown that happens when editing 23.98 in a 29.97 timeline.

The delivery specs call for standard broadcast bars, slate and blacks.
00:58:30:00 - 00:59:00:00 30 sec blacks
00:59:00:00 - 00:59:30:00 30 sec bars
00:59:30:00 - 00:59:50:00 20 sec slate
00:59:50:00 - 01:00:00:00 10 sec blacks
01:00:00:00 - video end Program

My question is, how do I get it to start at hour 1 and still give the exact specs they ask for? Every time I drop my output (a quicktime) onto a 29.97 timeline, the fist frame starts at 01:00:00;04. Where do I take those 4 frames out of without compromising the requested specs?

note- I output a quicktime and send that on a drive to SMV in burbank an they do the conversion. When I asked them, they assumed I accounted for the extra frames in my 23.98 timeline.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: 23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Feb 1, 2013 at 8:32:48 pm

Why are you fooling around at 29.97 when the delivery specs call for 59.94?

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Shane Ross
Re: 23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Feb 1, 2013 at 8:35:02 pm

59.94i Dave...that's 29.97 fps.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Kevin Blum
Re: 23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Feb 1, 2013 at 8:55:28 pm

Interesting Shane. I definitely check out that app and probably double check my work with the Slug method in the event I need to cut something to time. luckily, for these web projects, the TRT doesn't matter. I'm just trying to figure out where the best place to cut those couple frames from, so that my SOT lands on 01:00:00;00.

If I have 30 secs black, 30 secs bars, 20 slate, & 10 sec black and they all start on the timecodes requested, then my SOT won't land on hour 1. I need to cut a couple frames somewhere. Do I take it from the Bars & Tones?


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Shane Ross
Re: 23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Feb 1, 2013 at 9:03:03 pm

Oh...the start of the show. Cut out the frames from the head...the 30 seconds of black. That stuff no one cares if it is exactly timed. That's for the engineers. My bars start at 58:00:02 sometime...no one cares. As long as the show starts at 1:00:00;00 and hits the exact timing, that's all that matters.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Kevin Blum
Re: 23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Feb 1, 2013 at 9:21:30 pm

Ok, that's good to know.. I guess the only other question I have is, since my export will be 23.98, should the first frame on my timeline land on 01:00:00:00 or 00:59:59:22 to take into account for the conversion? Or will the kona card automatically do this?


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Shane Ross
Re: 23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Feb 1, 2013 at 9:43:13 pm

[Kevin Blum] " since my export will be 23.98, should the first frame on my timeline land on 01:00:00:00 or 00:59:59:22 to take into account for the conversion? Or will the kona card automatically do this?"

Picture start is ALWAYS 1:00:00;00. Always. And you do this on your timeline.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Kevin Blum
Re: 23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Feb 1, 2013 at 10:00:16 pm

But if it s starts at 01:00:00:00 on my 23.98 timeline, won't it start at 01:00:00;02 when converted?


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Shane Ross
Re: 23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Feb 1, 2013 at 10:05:02 pm

No. People who do these output conversions should know when to start the tape. Talk to them about this. I deal with a company that knows what to do to get the show to start at 1:00:00;00 on the tapes. Because this practice of 23.98 to 29.97 outputs is common.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Shane Ross
Re: 23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Feb 1, 2013 at 10:13:17 pm

Or is that the issue? They want YOU to time it so that when it hits 1:00;00;00 on the tape output that's when picture starts? I've never had to try to plan that...the tape op always did this. GOOD tape ops know what to do.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Kevin Blum
Re: 23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Feb 1, 2013 at 10:29:30 pm

Got it. That's basically what I wanted to know. Thanks so much for help!


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Joseph Owens
Re: 23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Feb 1, 2013 at 9:39:13 pm

[Shane Ross] "59.94i Dave...that's 29.97 fps."

Shane, Dave is at an ABC affiliate which lives in the world of 720P60, so that's what that network would want. At least that is my understanding. Interesting that it is one of the formats supported by HDCamSR.

jPo

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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Shane Ross
Re: 23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Feb 1, 2013 at 9:44:50 pm

I understand that. But the original post said:

"Network which requires delivery on HDCAM in 1080i 59.94."

And that is 29.97. I know many places do 720p59.94.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Shane Ross
Re: 23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Feb 1, 2013 at 8:35:02 pm

How do you do this? Best way is to output to tape the 23.98 timeline via a Kona 3 or other capture card that will add the proper pulldown when it is output.

[Kevin Blum] "
note- I output a quicktime and send that on a drive to SMV in burbank an they do the conversion. When I asked them, they assumed I accounted for the extra frames in my 23.98 timeline."


There's the rub. 23.98 is a non-drop frame format only. Meaning that it doesn't drop frame numbers like 29.97 drop frame timecode does in order to ensure exact and proper timing. If you cut something at 23.98 to be 30 min long, in reality, it's 30 min, one second, and 24 frames long. So almost 2 seconds longer than you think it is.

This is something you need to take into account when editing. If you need to deliver a show that needs to be exactly 22:34:00 (typical half hour show time) at 29.97, but you are cutting 23.98...then you need to calculate what the 23.98 NDF timing will need to be in order to become 22:34:00. I use a timecode calculator that shows me this...it's called EditCalc and it's for the iPhone. I calculate that you need to make the 23.98 timeline work out to be 22:35:10 in order to time out to 22:34:00 when output at 29.97 drop frame.

You can also figure it out without a calculator by making a 29.97 DF timeline, and filling slug up to the timing you need to get to. THen take that sequence of slug, and copy and paste it into a 23.98 NDF timeline...and note the last frame of timecode. That's the timing mark you need to hit at 23.98 in order to time out right.

So yes, you need to account for the timing difference.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Joseph Owens
Re: 23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Feb 1, 2013 at 9:36:15 pm

[Shane Ross] "How do you do this? Best way is to output to tape the 23.98 timeline via a Kona 3 or other capture card that will add the proper pulldown when it is output."

True.

But not an option for those of us who also export captions to tape, because the QTCC file has to agree with the timeline or NO GO. I create 29.97i master QTs out of Compressor (extremely time consuming) but "Fast" conversion actually creates a true 2:3 pulldown, instead of that erroneous and lame FCP export/conversion.

Interesting that now that Apple deems broadcast "dead", we are now explaining how interlace and drop frame works, on a regular basis. Its the numbers that go up faster, not the absolute frame count.

If you stepped through a DF timeline, you would see the counter skip from ;29 to ;02 every minute except on the tens. You have to "get rid of" 108 frames per hour. Its kind of inconvenient that one of them is 59:00:00, which is in the preamble of every tapeout that should start at 1:00:00;00. You would see that 58:59;29 exists, but 59:00;00 and 59:00;01 do NOT. The next counter time is 59:00;02, and that is where your two "extra" frames are.

jPo

"I always pass on free advice -- its never of any use to me" Oscar Wilde.


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Neil Patience
Re: 23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Feb 1, 2013 at 10:56:19 pm

It is when I read posts like this that I am so glad I work in UK Broadcast. 25P or 50i is usually as complicated as it gets.
I am always slightly confused by the drop frame non drop frame pull down and diverse frame rates you guys deal with everyday.
I have delivered shows to Nat Geo and History Channel US on HDCam SR but always have to get a tape op to double check my workflow when I do.

best wishes
Neil
http://www.patience.tv

8 Core MacPro, Kona 3, Tangent Wave, Mackie Universal Symphony 6.5 FCP7
i7 2.7 Gig MBP (non retina) 16Gigs Ram Blackmagic Monitor Mini Symphony 6.5 FCP7


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Craig Fox
Re: 23.98 to 59.94 conversion.
on Jan 5, 2014 at 12:59:19 am

Recently I found a nice website for timecode calculation. Wouldn't you know...http://www.timecodecalculator.com/

I've been using it at work. It doesn't assume you want to always start at hour 1, so you can start at 0, or hour 10, or 57:30:00 if you really are in a pinch for your head format.

Really helpful site.


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