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5DtoRGB versus L&T in FCP

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Sascha Engel
5DtoRGB versus L&T in FCP
on Jan 7, 2013 at 5:37:12 pm

Hi Everybody,

I have following Q: I work with Mark lll MAterial shot with ZEISS Primes and the CineStyle Color Profile.
I'd like to keep the Q as high as possible. Right now, I am ingesting with L&T Tool of FCP - importing as ProRes (normal, not HQ).
I heard that 5DtoRGB does a great job, but is very VERY slow.
Could somebody elaborate on that matter? Is the difference really that significant?
How much is the time difference in transcoding? I have 500 clips.

And afterwards: How to treat cinestyle footage best in CC? How do I get some sharpness back? What are important things to look out for when working with this profile? I never used Technicolor setting before.

Thanx.


Greetings, Sascha


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Shane Ross
Re: 5DtoRGB versus L&T in FCP
on Jan 7, 2013 at 8:44:29 pm

[Sascha Engel] "I heard that 5DtoRGB does a great job, but is very VERY slow.
Could somebody elaborate on that matter?"


It does a better job. More color information is kept. People say it is a cleaner image than L&T provides.

[Sascha Engel] "Is the difference really that significant?"

If your goal is TV...not really. Feature film...big screen, yeah, you'll see it.

[Sascha Engel] "How much is the time difference in transcoding? I have 500 clips."

About twice as long as L&T in my experience. Just over 2x...like 2.25 or so. A LOT longer.

[Sascha Engel] "How to treat cinestyle footage best in CC?"

It will be flat when you edit it, unless you add a color correction filter and tweak things, then add that filter to all the clips. Or leave it flat, if the producers can deal with it, knowing it'll look better later. MUCH better.

[Sascha Engel] "How do I get some sharpness back?"

By tweaking the highlights, lows and mids. Crush the blacks a lot...color correction will get this looking good.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Sascha Engel
Re: 5DtoRGB versus L&T in FCP
on Jan 8, 2013 at 12:14:50 am

Hi Shane,

thanx for your quick, and as usual, wise answer, which - as the Box of Pandora rolls - creates more Qs:


[Shane Ross] "If your goal is TV...not really. Feature film...big screen, yeah, you'll see it."

Difficult to answer: It's a movie that is part of a theatre show, it will be projected with a beamer on a bigger screen, and partially on small TV screens and tents. So, you think with an SD Beamer Projection it would matter?


[Shane Ross] "It will be flat when you edit it, unless you add a color correction filter and tweak things, then add that filter to all the clips. Or leave it flat, if the producers can deal with it, knowing it'll look better later. MUCH better."

That is easy: I am the director of the film bit, DP & editor, so I do not have to make it look flashy during the editing process in the Offline bit. But since I also Grade it, I just wanted to know if there is some hints, which I should look out for, when grading the flat Cinestyle image. It looks amazing and I do not want to crush it to death to the blacks, but it needs some crushing the blacks and some re-sharpening for sure. Any thoughts on this one? I usually work with unsharpen/sharpen masks in AE, but is it also possible inside FCP? The FCP filters in the sharpen department are not really good, to say at least.



Thanx.

Sascha Engel
TIME BANDITZ Productions
http://www.youtube.com/taikang


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Michael Gissing
Re: 5DtoRGB versus L&T in FCP
on Jan 8, 2013 at 1:08:52 am

Forget the FCP sharpen tools. Also the sharpen in Color is not as good as FXFactory or Lyric unsharpen mask for FCP plugins.

Grading in Color you can use luma curves to selectively deal with blacks without losing details. You might want to adjust black & white levels first and balance color with the contrast curve on the primary out (more like using a LUT). it is an interactive technique so fiddle with some basic settings and then copy that to all clips before fine tuning individual shots.

If you are grading in da Vinci then there may well be a LUT for the technicolor settings. If not there is bound to be one somewhere on the net to download.


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Shane Ross
Re: 5DtoRGB versus L&T in FCP
on Jan 8, 2013 at 2:19:00 am

I wouldn't use the sharpen tools. The footage isn't unsharp, it's just not colorful. And color correct outside of FCP if you can...COLOR or RESOLVE, something that can really dig into the footage. FCP's tools are decent, but very limited in their levels of control.

As for tricks for what to do...I'm not an all out colorist, so I don't know the great details. I have worked with RED footage that was shot flat. I crushed the blacks, and then mainly toggled the mids. Telling people how to color correct is tough...on a forum post

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Michael Gissing
Re: 5DtoRGB versus L&T in FCP
on Jan 8, 2013 at 3:26:16 am

Shane some people recommend winding the sharpness right off in a 5D to reduce moire and then add a little sharpening in post. I have tried this and it is often better than leaving the sharpening on in camera. I have also used it on telphoto shots where there is some atmospheric haze.

Also my 70-200 isn't naturally as sharp as the 16-35 so I sometimes add a small amount of sharpening to match shots.


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Sascha Engel
Re: 5DtoRGB versus L&T in FCP
on Jan 8, 2013 at 8:33:39 am

Hi Shane,

Thanx for the advice. I don't really need to be told how to color correct.
Actually, I do it since quiet a while.
Certainly I ain't Van Gogh of the colorists, but I think I do a quiet good job.
I just never used this color profile and therefor wanted to know if there's any booby trap in post with it,
That I should look out for.
I agree with Michael, what he says about sharpening.
But can it be, if the theatre projects the movie in SD in the end, that the sharpening will result in moire and jagged ages when resizing it, so it might be beneficial for the SD version to keep it slightly soft?

Sascha Engel
TIME BANDITZ Productions
http://www.youtube.com/taikang


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Rafael Amador
Re: 5DtoRGB versus L&T in FCP
on Jan 8, 2013 at 10:30:01 am

If you have used the the Technicolor Cinestile profile, you have to search the LUT (technicolor website).
As soon as you load in Color the "S-Curve for Technicolor.mga", half of the correction is done.
The curve is applied to the whole project.
For the sharpening, if needed, NeatVideo, and very carefully.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Sascha Engel
Re: 5DtoRGB versus L&T in FCP
on Jan 8, 2013 at 11:00:03 am

Hallo Raphael,


how are you doing? Thanx again for your generously shared wisdom.
You are referring to applying the LUT inside FCP or COLOR?
How you apply it? LUT Buddy from Red Giant?

About sharpening - you are talking about dosing it very carefully and not over doing it?
Which one is the Best for inside FCP? Neat, Lyric or FX Factory? What are their price marks?


Thanx a lot again!

Sascha Engel
TIME BANDITZ Productions
http://www.youtube.com/taikang


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Rafael Amador
Re: 5DtoRGB versus L&T in FCP
on Jan 8, 2013 at 3:23:37 pm

Hi Sascha,
My experience with LUT is about one job that I did with stuff shot on a Canan.
They used the Technicolor Cinestile profile.
When shooting with that profile, Technicolor has ready to download the LUT that reverse the curve applied on the camera.
I did it in Color, but for what I've been reading, you can apply the same LUT with the help of "LUT Buddy", in FC, PP, AE and Motion.
In the end a LUT is not but a preset color correction.

About the Sharpening, don't worry until you have the color done.
I use NeatVideo. Is very good.
Rafael

PS: Personally I'm not very fond of shooting with those too-flat profiles, because unless you have a monitoring system that apply the LUT your only guide when shooting is that flat picture on the camera LCD or external monitor. In the other hand, such a kind of picture profile makes sense only when you need to keep a very high dynamic range, and shooting with an 8b codec I have the feeling that I'm just dilapidating a great deal of bandwidth. You use only around a 40% or even less of the levels available from 0 to 109%.

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Rafael Amador
Re: 5DtoRGB versus L&T in FCP
on Jan 8, 2013 at 4:05:03 pm

I just remember that I had this on my e-mail few weeks ago.
It can be interesting for people working with that kind of footage;

https://www.technicolorcinestyle.com/cinestyle-color-assist/

rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Sascha Engel
Re: 5DtoRGB versus L&T in FCP
on Jan 8, 2013 at 4:35:05 pm

Nice! Thanx. I will check it out.

Sascha Engel
TIME BANDITZ Productions
http://www.youtube.com/taikang


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