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2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?

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Hal Masonberg
2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 7, 2013 at 12:41:58 am

I exported a movie from FCP7 via Quicktime Current Settings. Looked good. Then went back in to FCP and made a very small edit to the film (just lowered some music cues) and re-exported via Quicktime Current Settings again. NO SETTINGS HAD BEEN CHANGED. But the new QT file is slightly brighter than the first. Why would this be? Again, no settings were changed. It should, in theory, look EXACTLY the same. What happened?


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Michael Gissing
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 7, 2013 at 12:52:24 am

Well a lot depends on what your sequence settings are and how you are looking at the QT file. Also I assume you are exporting via QuickTime movie, not QuickTime conversion.


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Hal Masonberg
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 7, 2013 at 2:32:29 am

Yes, exporting via Quicktime Movie, not Conversion. And I am opening the mov files in QT and looking at them side-by-side. The newer ones are now brighter. Not significantly, but certainly noticeably. I can't imagine what would account for this. I never changed anything in Sequence Settings.


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Michael Gissing
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 7, 2013 at 2:47:48 am

Still don't know important things like sequence settings and source codecs but in the meantime, try importing the files back into FCP and see if they are different. QuickTime has always been an unreliable place to make technical assesments. Depending on which version of QuickTime there may be settings which will help but your lack of useful information makes it hard to guess.


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Hal Masonberg
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 7, 2013 at 4:27:46 am

Understood. I would think if the settings having changed, the output wouldn't either. My settings are NTSC DV (3:2), NTSC - CCIR 601, Field Dominance: None, Compressor: Photo-JPEG (because that was what the materials were delivered to me on many years ago and I don't want to put it through another compression render in FCP), Quality: 100%.

Again, outputting with current settings, and then viewing both QT files side-by-side in Quicktime 10.0. And the older file I output from FCP last week is a tad darker than any new QT file I export from FCP now. And I prefer the slightly darker one. But it doesn't have the audio fix I recently made.

Hope that's the info you were looking for.

Thanks.


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Michael Gissing
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 7, 2013 at 5:15:31 am

Well jpeg in a DV sequence is going to be recompressed as DV. Also DV is standard def so there might be scaling going on depending on your source material. Is your source material still images or motion jpeg video files. Motion Jpeg at 100℅ is almost uncompressed but a DV sequence is not good.



QT 10 is a really poor player to do critical testing of a file. I would import the file into FCP and compare with a split screen to see if there is an real difference.


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Hal Masonberg
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 7, 2013 at 6:45:36 am

Unfortunately, working with standard def. This was shot on 35mm, but what we're working with here is a rough cut in SD from some DVD dailies. Long story, but the footage was taken from the dvd's as Photo - JPEG even though this is a feature film. What we're cutting here has no relation to what the film should look like in a proper transfer from the 35 elements. That said, I am still trying to offer the best and most accurate quality possible under these circumstances. Is there another setting I should be working in? I'm assuming the damage has already been done and there's no reversing it. However, if there are options open to me, I'd love to know what they are.

I'll import to FCP and compare that way. Thanks.


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Michael Gissing
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 7, 2013 at 7:00:01 am

Try a prores 422 sequence. DV is an awful lossy codec. Duplicate the sequence and change the settings to ProRes 422. The exported QuickTime should have correct gamma.


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Hal Masonberg
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 7, 2013 at 8:24:30 am

I'll try that. Wish the materials had been prores from the get-go. Question, if the sequence I have now is already rendered as DV, would bringing it into a new sequence and re-rendering just add another generation of loss to it, or does that only happen when exporting?


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Michael Gissing
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 7, 2013 at 9:00:51 am

When you rendered it made it DV. So changing and rendering as ProRes is much better. Then export movie with current settings and then gamma should match plus the quality will be better than DV


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Rafael Amador
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 7, 2013 at 10:55:16 am

Set also "Render all YUV in High Precision".
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Hal Masonberg
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 7, 2013 at 6:07:55 pm

Thanks. I've also noticed that if I send the project directly to Compressor via FCP, it takes about 20 HOURS to compress. If I export a QT movie (no conversion) and bring THAT into Compressor, it only takes around 40 minutes. That's a HUGE difference. Is one doing a more proper job than the other? Why does it take SO much longer sending it to Compressor directly from FCP?


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Michael Gissing
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 8, 2013 at 12:55:46 am

Recommended is to always export self contained QT movie and go to Compressor. It means Compressor can work in the background and FCP is free.


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Rafael Amador
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 8, 2013 at 2:09:11 am

[Hal Masonberg] "Thanks. I've also noticed that if I send the project directly to Compressor via FCP, it takes about 20 HOURS to compress. If I export a QT movie (no conversion) and bring THAT into Compressor, it only takes around 40 minutes. That's a HUGE difference. Is one doing a more proper job than the other? Why does it take SO much longer sending it to Compressor directly from FCP?"
The problem with "Send to Compressor", is that Compressor do not use the renders all ready done on FC and render again. If you make a "Two Passes" MEPG-2, the stuff will be rendered twice, and if you make a Multipass H264, all your sequence will be rendered THREE times.
Is a real waist of time.
As Michael say, better to export a high quality master from FC and them import it to Compressor.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Hal Masonberg
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 8, 2013 at 3:12:24 am

Thanks. I've noticed that if I set it to "Render all YUV in High Precision", it won't allow me to render in prores 422. It has to be set to RGB.


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Hal Masonberg
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 8, 2013 at 5:51:51 am

And now FCP 7 is running VERY slow. All of a sudden, it takes forever to open the app. And when I try and render, it eventually shows "General Error" and nothing's actually been rendered. Even after a couple of hours of running. That's never happened before. No idea why or what this means. Other question, if my original materials were in Photo-JPEG and then I switch it to Pro Res, isn't that adding another generation of render? Or does that somehow improve the quality? Aren't I better just Exporting as is? Will Pro Res actually improve the quality of the export at this stage?


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Rafael Amador
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 8, 2013 at 10:38:41 am

[Hal Masonberg] "Thanks. I've noticed that if I set it to "Render all YUV in High Precision", it won't allow me to render in prores 422. It has to be set to RGB."
That makes no sense.
Should be the opposite.
Prores is YUV.


[Hal Masonberg] "if my original materials were in Photo-JPEG and then I switch it to Pro Res, isn't that adding another generation of render? "
Prores is virtually uncompressed, so it won't cause further recompression.
The main point is that you avoid the DV codec.
Try rendering in the original JPEG codec. If you have not applied effect or changes in the Motion tab, it won't be recompression. Exporting should be fast.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Hal Masonberg
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 8, 2013 at 6:03:42 pm

Interesting. I've been researching and I've found other folks online who have had the exact same problem as me trying to render Pro Res in YUV High Precision. Won't allow it. See here: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2544458?start=0&tstart=0 and here: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3438620?start=0&tstart=0

AS for JPEG, I originally rendered it that way. And there ARE effects in the motion tab. Many of them. Does that mean I shouldn't bother rendering in Pro Res at this stage? Will it improve the image at all?

Or, and this would be time consuming, should I remove all effects, render in prores and then put effects back in?


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Rafael Amador
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 9, 2013 at 2:45:45 am

The issues are very different.
On the first case he is getting a "Codec Not Found" error.
That's is to expect when he is importing to FC a 3500x2500 Prores movie.
That size is not supported by FC.
In the second case he do not specify his setting, but he is also getting the same error.
Nowhere they say they are forced to render in 8bRGB.

Try opening a new NTSC DV sequence, set Prores as the codec and "Render in High Precision", then copy and paste the stuff from your first sequence.

[Hal Masonberg] "AS for JPEG, I originally rendered it that way. And there ARE effects in the motion tab. Many of them. Does that mean I shouldn't bother rendering in Pro Res at this stage? Will it improve the image at all? "
The point is always avoid recompression. If rendering is needed will always be better to do it to a less compressed codec, and Prores is less compressed than PhotoJPEG.
The ideal would be to render to Uncompressed, but most times is not a practical solution die to the big files size. If your movie is not too long and you have no problem about storage, you can try so.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Hal Masonberg
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 9, 2013 at 7:32:25 am

The film's long. 1 hr, 43 mins. I also get the "Codec Not Found" though I thought I had all the prores codecs. It works at 8bit YUV. But not 10 and not high precision. FCP also eventually crashes when I try to cut and paste the film into another sequence. It takes a long time to copy and then when I go to paste, the wheel spins for an eternity and the program eventually crashes. Never had any of these problems before the past few days. I did a smaller test of the quality difference between the JPEG version and a bit of Pro Res 8 bit. It looked a bit better. Not sure if that has to do with rendering it as Pro Res, or whether that's the 8 bit YUV versus RGB. I was able to Duplicate the JPEG Sequence (when cutting and pasting failed). That worked, but unfortunately, when I try to render it as Pro Res, it will only let me render for a while, then I get "General Error" and nothing has been rendered. I have to stop it and save it periodically to get through the entire film. If I let it go too long rendering unstopped, General Error comes up again.


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Rafael Amador
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 9, 2013 at 9:34:18 am

The "Codec not found" doesn't really means that you don't have the codec installed.
Are you using any graphic from Photoshop or so?
Make sure they are RGB and not CMYK.
That is one cause the "Codec not found" error.

Try something very simple that quite often fix some issues: Use the "Save aas.." function and save your project with a different name.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Hal Masonberg
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 9, 2013 at 10:09:36 pm

Still, no matter what I do (tried Save As), it won't let me render in high precision (only 8 bit). I still get the "Codec not found" popup. I do have effects attached, so maybe that has something to do with it? Nothing from Photoshop, but I do have color and Magic Bullet, Neat Video effects. Maybe they are not compatible?


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Rafael Amador
Re: 2 QT (current settings) exports from exact same source, but 1 darker?
on Jan 10, 2013 at 2:03:04 am

[Hal Masonberg] "Nothing from Photoshop, but I do have color and Magic Bullet, Neat Video effects. Maybe they are not compatible?"
That could be an issue.
I work too with NeatVideo and I found problems when applying it with some other effects.
rafel

http://www.nagavideo.com


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