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Matt Scholes
missing audio tracks
on Dec 18, 2012 at 10:38:10 am

There are two parts to this problem.

I've been working with a project where my assistant has synced the clip with the audio (which has 6 audio tracks), created new independent clips from these and moved them into a new project.

In the browser it shows that the original clip has 6 audio tracks, on the timeline though ive only been cutting with two, for ease of cutting, but now i'm creating an OMF for the sound mixer I want to get the original 6 audio tracks back. However, when I hit F to match frame it only has the two tracks, and if I shift+F to find the clip in the browser it says this master clip doesnt exist. This is despite me bringing the clip in originally from the browser.

Basically I want to avoid having to copy the TC from the clip in the timeline, look up the OG clip in the browser and copy and paste the TC to find the audio, because this will take forever.

If you aren't willing to change you shouldn't be editing" - Richard Marks


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Matt Scholes
Also reveal in finder won't work
on Dec 18, 2012 at 10:50:03 am

So when I try to reveal a clip in finder, nothing happens. I imagine this has something to do with the problem?

If you aren't willing to change you shouldn't be editing" - Richard Marks


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Nick Meyers
Re: Also reveal in finder won't work
on Dec 18, 2012 at 1:02:34 pm

most likely somewhere along the line, the Master / Affiliate link between your timeline clips and your Browser clips has been broken.

it may be too late to fix this.

you should try copying your sequence into a new project, and use Tools Menu > Create Master Clips.
hopefully your new master clips will have all 6 tracks, but it's not a given.

there are a couple of software solutions, that will re-conform your 6tk audio against your 2 tk edit.

one is an FCP-based solution, so something YOU would do.
it is Sync n Link, and a little expensive for a one-off problem, but it has other functions, so may be useful for you.

the other is ProTools based (And maybe other DAWs, i'm not sure) so it is something the sound team would deal with.
great, you can palm it off to them!
it is TITAN
http://www.synchroarts.com/products/home.php?ID=titan.


a few years ago neither of these things existed, and i had to re-conform my multi track audio in FCP.
even using QuicKeys automation it took about a day per 20 minute spool


one other manual approach might be to use Reveal Source (Option Apple F), rather than Reveal in Finder


nick


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Matt Scholes
Re: Also reveal in finder won't work
on Dec 18, 2012 at 2:44:55 pm

Hi Nick,

thanks for the reply.

How do you think the relationship could've been broken?

Those fixes look like good software, but we had numerous timecode issues with one of the cameras in terms of being aligned with the audio TC, which through running the demo it seems to cause huge problems.

Think im just going to have to manually go through everything using TC from the 2 track clip as a reference for the multi track clip. Not fun.

Just want to make sure I don't make the same mistake again. Do you have any ideas to make sure that I don't? I've been syncing the rushes in a project for each shoot day, then I merge the clips and copy and paste them into whichever episode's project they belong.

I've cut four episodes so far for this season and this is the first in which this has happened.

If you aren't willing to change you shouldn't be editing" - Richard Marks


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Shane Ross
Re: Also reveal in finder won't work
on Dec 18, 2012 at 5:35:49 pm

Look into this...

http://assistedediting.intelligentassistance.com/Sync-N-Link/

And never just cut with two tracks for "ease of cutting." That ease causes a lot of pain later, and will cost time and money to fix. If you sync'd 6 audio tracks, cut with 6 audio tracks. It what you have to do as an editor...deal with stuff like that.

Sync and Link has worked for many..it's pretty solid. But next time...edit with all the audio tracks. FCP allows 99 tracks for a good reason.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Matt Scholes
Re: Also reveal in finder won't work
on Dec 19, 2012 at 10:33:11 am

But surely making a checkerboard edit with 18 tracks of audio, sometimes with 7 different audio sources (including some harsh background noise) is completely impractical? And slows down your edit no end?

I've edited with two tracks for the first four episodes of what I'm cutting and it's been incredibly smooth.

I just wasn't banking on FCP having one of it's mind bending moments.

If you aren't willing to change you shouldn't be editing" - Richard Marks


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Shane Ross
Re: Also reveal in finder won't work
on Dec 19, 2012 at 5:29:43 pm

[Matt Scholes] "But surely making a checkerboard edit with 18 tracks of audio, sometimes with 7 different audio sources (including some harsh background noise) is completely impractical?"

Impractical? No. Necessary. Many times I will have 8 people with individual mics and I want to hear one clearly, but not another, so I either dip down all the other channels, or add edit and remove. Does this take more time than using a simple two channel stereo track? Yes. But when you are tasked with dealing with multiple channels of audio, and you are the PICTURE editor...sorry, it's your job to deal with those channels of audio.

[Matt Scholes] "And slows down your edit no end?"

It does slow it down, yet. But it is an essential part of my edit. If I don't do this, how else is the audio mixer going to get this audio? That's the issue you are running into now. That is a pretty vital part of the process. By doing this one thing to make it easier for you, you've really messed it up for the final mix.

[Matt Scholes] "I've edited with two tracks for the first four episodes of what I'm cutting and it's been incredibly smooth."

FOR YOU...and for the edit. But now you've hit a brick wall and a major issue. This is why you need to edit with all those tracks and checkerboard things. Many a show and many a post supervisor have said "you must checkerboard your audio. This isn't a recommendation, it is a requirement."

[Matt Scholes] "I just wasn't banking on FCP having one of it's mind bending moments."

This isn't a bending moment. You did something wrong. This same issue would have popped up if you used Avid or Premiere Pro or Edius. If you don't use the all of the audio in the group clip, how else will the audio mixer get it? There is no button to press or setting to enable to magically make all the audio relink properly when the edit is done. Sync and Link was one solution that works for many. But it isn't perfect....as you also see.

[Matt Scholes] " you aren't willing to change you shouldn't be editing" - Richard Marks"

Exactly.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Matt Scholes
Re: Also reveal in finder won't work
on Dec 19, 2012 at 6:19:42 pm

Sorry Shane,

maybe i'm not being clear when I talk about only using two tracks.

This is how my workflow currently goes:

- I have 2 tracks of camera audio (the boom and a mix of the radio mics) which I sync to the external (however many track audio) in a syncing project.

- I then take these clips into a new cutting project, where I basically usually only enable the first two audio tracks on the timeline, so I'm cutting with the camera audio essentially. BUT the external audio is still in the master clip in the browser.

- When I've got picture lock I simply go over each piece of audio in the timeline and hit F to bring up the master clip in the viewer, which I then drag down into the timeline. Then I can make another pass of the edit bringing up or down certain mic levels ready to send an OMF to the dubbing mixer with all the tracks contained.

Obviously something went wrong with this project, it may have been me, but I'm trying to figure out what I may have done, in order to avoid it happening again, and can't think of anything.



And to fair fair Shane, I'm all about trying to change my editing practice for the best and learn new workflows.

If you aren't willing to change you shouldn't be editing" - Richard Marks


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Nick Meyers
Re: Also reveal in finder won't work
on Dec 18, 2012 at 9:50:39 pm

"How do you think the relationship could've been broken? "

one known cause: copying bins AND sequences together between projects.
copy one, then the other, is the correct way,
OR if it's just rushes coming from your syncing project, just bring a bin and create your rushes timeline in the edit project,
OR bring in a timeline of clips, and copy them in to a bin in the edit project

other than that, sometimes it just breaks :(

you could TRY copying your current edit sequence back into an OLDER version of the project, where the linkage may still work.
open some older projects and see if you can find one where it still works.


"we had numerous timecode issues with one of the cameras in terms of being aligned with the audio TC, which through running the demo it seems to cause huge problems."

i would have thought that the relationship between camera and Audio TC is not not an issue,
all you need is to re-confirm the audio from the audio TC.

are you saying you tried a Demo of SyncnLink?
maybe you sent if video TC, and should give it Audio TC
i havent used this function of S+L, so cant say,
but the developers are pretty quick at responding to queries, in my experience.


"Think im just going to have to manually go through everything using TC from the 2 track clip as a reference for the multi track clip. Not fun."

did you try Reveal Source?
maybe copy your timeline, delete all video
does Reveal Source on an audio clip (Option Apple R) bring up the 6 tk audio?

if so you can re-build the track a lot easier.



"Just want to make sure I don't make the same mistake again. Do you have any ideas to make sure that I don't? "

i'm always using Reveal in FInder, so if it does happen to break for a weird unknown reason, i find it pretty quickly, and am able to go back and fix it.



nick


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Matt Scholes
Re: Also reveal in finder won't work
on Dec 19, 2012 at 10:41:29 am

Thanks Nick,

Unfortunately nothing worked, so I manually went through it.

Yep I tried the demo of s&l but it had quite a few problems. Might look into to in the future though.

Originally I'd only moved the bins from the syncing project to the editing one, so yes no idea where the problem arose. I guess i'll just be super aware should reveal in finder or find in browser stop working.

If you aren't willing to change you shouldn't be editing" - Richard Marks


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