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Deinterlacing issue with full HD

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julienne rathore
Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 10:18:51 am

Dear Creative Cow,

I am exporting from FCP and getting slightly confused regarding de-interlacing.

The footage is Apple ProRes 422, full HD 1080 50i.
My sequence settings are set to 1920 x 1080, HDTV 1080i (16:9).
Pixel ratio square, field dominance upper, timebase 25.
Quicktime video settings: Compressor Apple ProRes 422.

The question is: do I de-interlace my footage by adding the video filter 'De-interlace' to all the individual clips from the FCP effects box, or do I de-interlace at a later stage/in a different way?

In the sequence setting under 'compressor advanced', there is a box checked for 'Interlaced' where there is a choice from a scroll bar for either bottom or top field first.
Should this 'Interlaced' box be checked or un-checked? And does this affect the adding of de-interlace from video filters? This is the stage that is confusing me.

Hope you can help! Appreciated enormously!

Julienne.


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Steve Eisen
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 12:48:40 pm

No need to de-interlace.

Steve Eisen
Eisen Video Productions
Vice President
Chicago Creative Pro Users Group


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Neil Patience
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 1:39:00 pm

As per Steves comment - not sure why you need to de-interlace. The de-interlace filter on FCP is not the most "subtle" of deinterlacers. You will likely degrade your footage if you use that.

best wishes
Neil
http://www.patience.tv


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julienne rathore
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 2:24:59 pm

Thank you both of you!

I am still a little confused though.
I understand that you both say I should not add the de-interlace using the video filter in the fcp effects, but what about the issue of the compressor - it is automatically checked 'on' as 'interlaced' - should I uncheck this?

And my footage is interlaced footage - should I not de-interlace it at some stage?

how would you export the finished product?

Thanks again!
Julienne.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 3:23:28 pm

[julienne rathore] "how would you export the finished product?"

Since you haven't revealed what you need to deliver, we can't really give you any definitive advice on that.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Neil Patience
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 3:50:07 pm

Agree with Dave - plus de-interacing is not a standard requirement, of course it may be that you prefer the look or your delivery requires it
Let us know where your programme is going and that will likely shed some light on whats best do do.

best wishes
Neil
http://www.patience.tv


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julienne rathore
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 4:04:40 pm

Sorry!

My project is first of all going to film festivals - its an experimental full length feature film.

Do you think I should leave the footage interlaced?
I was always under the impression that progressive was superior to interlaced (unfortunately I didn't have my XDCAM with me when filming this project, so it is full HD 1080i).
I also assumed that de-interlacing interlaced footage was better than sending off a final project as interlaced...

Footage is Apple ProRes 422 and my system settings have Apple ProRes 422 as compressor for quicktime video settings. Don't understand the checked 'interlaced' box in 'advanced'. There is also an unchecked box titled 'Enable 4:4:4 chroma filtering'...?

Default has the 'interlaced' box checked - should I concern myself with this?

And yes, please if you would suggest how you would export it.
I would export it using compressor to create a dvd (to send to festivals), but this checked 'interlaced' box concerns me...and I am also definitely confused regarding whether or not to de-interlace the whole thing now....

Thank you!!!
julienne


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 5:39:01 pm

[julienne rathore] "...unfortunately I didn't have my XDCAM with me when filming this project, so it is full HD 1080i...
Footage is Apple ProRes 422 and my system settings have Apple ProRes 422 as compressor for quicktime video settings. Don't understand the checked 'interlaced' box in 'advanced"


To answer that fully, we would need to know the frame rate of the footage, whether the camera used is capable of shooting progressive scan video, and whether you shot interlaced or progressive.



[julienne rathore] "My project is first of all going to film festivals"

Do these festivals not post technical specifications for the entries submitted? Also, where else may this project go?

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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julienne rathore
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 5:56:21 pm

Frame rate is 50i (full HD 1080i, imported via FCP as Apple ProRes), the camera is not capable of shooting progressive scan and I shot interlaced.

This is all getting me very confused - I normally de-interlace my footage if/when I shoot interlaced (does not happen often).

I have not checked for technical entry specifications regarding interlaced vs de-interlaced - I am not 100% sure which festivals I am entering yet, but have previously entered projects shot on progressive as well as 1 project shot interlaced. The interlaced project I de-interlaced before submitting.

Where else this project may go depends on how it is received - hopefully it will be of further interest somewhere.

Thank you,
julienne


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julienne rathore
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 6:14:41 pm

Are my sequence settings wrong? should this checked 'interlaced' box be unchecked?

thanks,
julienne.


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julienne rathore
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 7:05:20 pm

I have removed the de-interlace video filter applied from the FCP effects from all clips and the footage is all slightly sharper (looking at it in fcp). It does not seem to be interlaced either. I do not completely understand. The original imported footage (Apple ProRes) is most definitely interlaced (have checked several times)....
Is this possibly due to the 'interlaced' box being checked in the advanced section under compressor in sequence settings?

Do hope one of you creative cow gurus can help me with these issues - it looks fine (better than previously even, as I said), but I am confused...

Thank you!
Julienne.


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julienne rathore
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 7:39:04 pm

Upon export the footage is most definitely interlaced and does not look good - looks much better with the de-interlaced filter on. But maybe there is a better way to de-interlace it? It remains true that in FCP the footage looks sharper (and does not appear to be interlaced) than with the filter on.

So I am back to my original question which was about the 'interlaced' box in advanced settings under compressor in sequence settings.
I had never noticed this before (usually work with XDCAM footage), and it threw me. It is checked on as default and I was wondering what this did to my footage and whether it would be better to uncheck it?

I am extremely interested in any further information regarding best options when editing with interlaced footage.

Thank you again!!
julienne.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 8:55:10 pm

I'll bet you're looking at the export in a media player of some kind. They don't like interlacing.

Personally, I'm not bothered by interlacing, but I'm a TV station guy and we deal with that stuff all the time. Apparently you are not. If you're worried about interlacing so much, use Compressor to make a deinterlaced version of your exported file. You'll want to create a custom preset for that purpose, and don't be alarmed if Compressor takes all day to create the new file.

Dave LaRonde
Former Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 8:56:31 pm

[julienne rathore] "I have removed the de-interlace video filter applied from the FCP effects from all clips and the footage is all slightly sharper (looking at it in fcp). It does not seem to be interlaced either. I do not completely understand."

FCP will only display one video field in the Canvas window unless the Canvas window is set to 100%.


[julienne rathore] "Upon export the footage is most definitely interlaced and does not look good - looks much better with the de-interlaced filter on. But maybe there is a better way to de-interlace it? It remains true that in FCP the footage looks sharper (and does not appear to be interlaced) than with the filter on.
"

If you watched it on your computer the interlaced movie will look bad because computers by default cannot properly playback interlaced video.

The benefits of progressive vs interlaced primarily happen during shooting. Shooting interlaced then deinterlacing in post will not yield the same results and could very easily result in footage that looks much worse than the interlaced source material. As others here have said, you should only deinterlace your material if you have a specific need to do so and you shouldn't use FCP to do it (a program like Compressor will do a much better job).

For example, ff you are uploading a video to YouTube you should deinterlace your output because, like I said before, computers have problems playing back interlaced video. For a festival you should talk to the festival organizers and ask if they can properly project interlaced material. If so, just give them an interlaced copy of your movie as a properly displayed interlaced version of your movie will look better than a deinterlaced version.




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julienne rathore
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 9:06:05 pm

Thank you guys!

I will export using compressor and sort out my personal issues with interlaced video that way ;)

Final note: this checked 'interlaced' box in the sequence settings -> compressor -> advanced - ignore it? leave it checked as it is? or should I uncheck it?

you are appreciated!
julienne.


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 10:49:37 pm

Don't mess with the default sequence settings in FCP. Anything you do to deinteralce or convert your footage should be done outside of FCP.




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julienne rathore
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 10:53:05 pm

Fair enough. Is it safe to assume this is a default setting though?

thanks!
julienne


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Timothy Barksdale
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 16, 2012 at 8:34:06 pm

Julienne,

Unless I need to create a specific progressive frame -like for a still image- I never ever worry about deinterlacing footage. If you shoot it 1080i don't mess with it. The interlacing deals with motion far better than most of the progressive cameras, unless higher frame rates are being used during the shoot.

Good Luck,

Tim

Tim Barksdale
Birdman Productions LLC
Choteau, MT
MundoAveLoco!
Birdman Adventures LLC
Kansas City, MO


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Neil Patience
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 13, 2012 at 11:20:22 pm

Hi Julienne

yes that is the default as far as I can tell. The choice to shoot progressive or interlaced is largely an aesthetic one.
[julienne rathore] "I was always under the impression that progressive was superior to interlaced "

Progressive is not really superior but people like the look. Making video look like film has been somewhat of a holy grail over the years. Film is by nature progressive and people associate that look with quality. Its interesting to see peoples reaction to The Hobbit in 48 FPS - many dont like it, too clean, too "video" but it does seem somewhat incongruous that we base "quality" on something that is probably 100 year old technology.
As has been said deinterlacing plug-ins will often result in a poorer quality image as generally they reduce the resolution. The crudest of these literally throws out a field and just doubles up the remaining field, halving the resolution in a stroke. Other use more clever algorithms to average out the differences and interpolate the fields so not as much info is lost.
As Andrew suggests Compressor does a better job than FCP so I would finish your edit and go that route. But you can never judge the quality on a computer monitor. They simply do not process interlaced images correctly so you get a false impression of the quality.
You need a proper I/O card and a television monitor to make any kind of real assessment.
If you are delivering on DVD (not BluRay) then you are losing quality going to SD and that on top of deinterlacing may not show your footage in the best light. It would be interesting to burn a DVD from your interlaced sequence and another from your deinterlaced and then compare them using a DVD player on a decent TV. That will give you a much better indication than your MAC.

best wishes
Neil
http://www.patience.tv


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Andrew Kimery
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 14, 2012 at 12:18:23 am

[Neil Patience] "Progressive is not really superior but people like the look. Making video look like film has been somewhat of a holy grail over the years. "

I think what you are mentioning is more of frame rate thing than a progressive vs. interlaced thing. For example, I think 720p60 is better than 1080i60 for a few reasons but 720p60 looks nothing like 24p.




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Neil Patience
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 14, 2012 at 2:19:00 am

[Andrew Kimery] "I think what you are mentioning is more of frame rate thing than a progressive vs. interlaced thing. For example, I think 720p60 is better than 1080i60 for a few reasons but 720p60 looks nothing like 24p."

I get your point and I suppose it is frame rate thing. The point I was trying to make though was that in terms of Juliennes footage, his choice of wanting to de-interlace was an aesthetic one. Generally people associate progressive footage with a "filmic look" I have been in so many edits where clients want a "film effect" and given that the frame rate is fixed then the only variable is progressive v interlaced. I work in PAL land so generally the choice is 25P or 50i. So one frame rate.
(720 of any flavour is never used.)

To be honest when I see how many people have shot on 3 cameras with one at 29.98 one at 59.94 and one at 29.97
I am glad I never have to deal with that :-)

best wishes
Neil
http://www.patience.tv


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julienne rathore
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 14, 2012 at 9:57:01 am

Thanks again!

Lets say I am going for that 'film look' - have added some grain and such...first time though and not completely sure how to achieve it - if it even is completely achieveable (I'm usually a documentary film person).
Any further suggestions for the 'film look'?

Also this project is highly experimental and heavily based on reality, so perhaps aiming for any kind of 'conventional look' is unnecessary.

Would you advise deinterlacing via compressor? or leave as interlaced?

And if the way to go is deinterlacing, could you point me somewhere with an explanaition as to how to create a good custom preset to carry this out.

Sorry to keep asking you so many question!
Your answers are much appreciated!
julienne


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Neil Patience
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 14, 2012 at 10:22:55 am

Hi Julienne

As Andrew suggested its best done via Compressor. So I would edit and finish your project as interlaced. Then export a self contained quicktime of your final sequence and then use that to create a deinterlaced version. You would then have a master QT file of both interlaced and deinterlaced.
From there you can easily make a DVD of each (or even just a section of each) to see which look you prefer viewed on a TV.
I dont really have a custom setting for that I can give you but Andrew or Dave or others may well.

In terms of film look, as I said is somewhat of a holy grail. However my favourite plug-in for this is Gen Arts Sapphire. There is a film look plug in there that can give pictures a really nice look. Sadly Sapphire is not cheap but you can download a full working demo for 30 days or you can rent on a monthly basis.
Maybe someone else has a different plug in suggestion but thats my fave.

If you wanted to give that a try I would wait till you had finished your edit then download and experiment. You would have 30 days to play around.
If you get something you like, export interlaced master as above and deinterlace that via compressor.

best wishes
Neil
http://www.patience.tv


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julienne rathore
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 14, 2012 at 3:15:20 pm

Thank you again Neil!

hope someone can help me out with the custom settings to deinterlace via compressor - or point me in the right direction :)

julienne


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Neil Patience
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 14, 2012 at 7:17:47 pm

Hi

I dont really use Compressor that much and its ages since I had to deinterlace anything so I would hate to send you on the wrong path.
I tend to only have to do odd shots and for that often use the Nattress deinterelace plug in as its better than the FCP one.
I couldn't say how that compares to Compressor though.
Going to be tricky to judge on a computer monitor.

Check this out http://www.digitalrebellion.com/blog/posts/using_frame_controls_in_compress...

Ignore the frame controls but about half way down it gives instructions on deinterlacing - I think the "Best" setting will be a long render but see how you go.

Also check this out - depending on how many cores you have this is a useful way of speeding up compressor with a virtual cluster. I have used this for DVD encoding and it certainly speeds things up on my 8 core machine.
http://www.devia.be/news/article/setting-up-a-virtual-cluster-to-speed-up-c...

hope that helps - sorry I am a bit vague on that point.

best wishes
Neil
http://www.patience.tv


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julienne rathore
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 18, 2012 at 2:48:39 pm

Thank you so much for all you help everyone!

julienne


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julienne rathore
Re: Deinterlacing issue with full HD
on Dec 25, 2012 at 12:59:11 am

Hi Neil - sorry to bother you again!

I was about to try the free download trial of Gen Arts Sapphire, but have seen that there are 2 products - 'Sapphire' or 'Sapphire Edge' - which one is the one with the film look plug in that you were advising me to try?
Also (and this may be a silly question) - can I use this free trial now and export a fully functional result or will it have some kind of restriction (like a watermark in the corner)?

Thanks!
Julienne


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